Alternator weep II

[Kool_Biker]

Some of you might remember my post Alternator weep viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8094, from November 12 2012 here.
Well, back then the consensus was I had not pushed the main alternator shaft seal fully home and the driven side plate shaft had munched it creating all sorts of rubber debris.
Everything was cleaned, a new seal was installed correctly this time and thought this was the end of it. However the exact same problem has recurred
Again, the alternator seal has moved out of its position by about 1.5 mm and has been munched just like last time ...
So beginning to think BOTH TIMES the seal was installed correctly (the 2nd time I even used loktite to keep it home) but obviously something is driving it out, where it touched the driven plate and slowly self destructs ..
Has anyone seen this before?
Some clues:
1. There was a 'clacking' noise at tick-over. most certainly from the alternator itself (bless my stethoscope - marvellous at locating engine sounds), which went away with speeding the engine.
2. The outer bearing has definitely spun in its location
3. Both my plates are like brand new, spring, fibre washer, steel washer, the lot.

P1060747.jpg

P1060748.jpg

P1060750.jpg

P1060751.jpg

P1060753.jpg

P1060757.jpg

P1060757 - Version 2.jpg

What does the spun bearing telling us?
Any guesses? Cheers

[daves79x]

Aris:

First, I think your seal is in backwards. The hollow side should face out (towards you as you are looking at it).

On the spun bearing - somewhere in your bike's history, that bearing in the alternator locked up and spun in the housing, creating a loose fit for the new bearing. I have a couple of covers here like that.

Dave

[Kool_Biker]

Thanks Dave!

Regarding the spun bearing ... is the cover in question toast?

[daves79x]

For all the more load that's on that bearing, I would think you could shim the bore and drive the bearing in pretty tight. That Euro cover is pretty rare (I think that's what you have). I'd try to save it. You might even machine the bore to fit a different bearing, if you could find such a thing.

The early model shop manual pretty much sucks concerning the alternator. The late manual clearly shows how the seal goes in and also defines the OHM readings for the slip rings. The early manual shows neither.

Dave

[Kool_Biker]

Thanks Dave. Clearly, time to do some (more) reading ...
Cheers

[asacuta]

I used Loctite stud and bearing mount to stop the outer race from spinning. The bearing was OK, so there should have been no reason for the outer race to spin. The alternator has been fine since. Maybe some of the housings were machined a little oversize.

As I recall (it was many years ago), the rotor shaft also spun in the inner race and I used Loctite on that as well. In any event, the alternator quit making screeching noises after I put it back together.

The down side to the Loctite will be that the next time I service the alternator, it will probably be a bitch to separate the two halves.

[daves79x]

Aris:

I edited my post to say 'bearing' instead of 'seal', referring to the outer cover - suppose you figured out it was a typo.

Dave

[Kool_Biker]

Aris:

I edited my post to say 'bearing' instead of 'seal', referring to the outer cover - suppose you figured out it was a typo.

Dave

Indeed, thanks Dave.

[Kool_Biker]

I've just ordered a set of new seals from DSS. As I am waiting for the parts to arrive I will look deeper into this &^%$ part of our beloved CBXs
So this morning I had a careful look at my alternator driving and driven plates. On the surface (no pun intended), they look good - almost brand new.
However, closer inspection of the plates have shown 3 things to me:
1. There are signs of mild overheating of the driven plate (no wonder).

2. The contact area of the two plates is a (very) thin strip, near the circumference. It's clearly visible in the driving side, less so but nevertheless there, in the driven. Not sure 100% this is bad, and do recall a discussion about this some time ago. It involved a Honda Bulletin on the subject matter, unearthed by Mike Nixon?
For completeness, last time I did the alternator I did smooth both plates on an engineer's granite plate, using snapper and engine oil - clearly, I did not do this long enough.

3. The strip of contact area is not 100% perfectly circular. Maybe one of the plates is slightly bend or (hope not) one of the two shafts (driving, driven)?

P1060764.jpg

P1060767.jpg

I will look into no 3, and wonder what should I do with no 2.

Cheers

[NobleHops]

Being somewhat of a hack myself, I sanded mine flat, shimmed my too-short spring, replaced the bearings and seals and sailed on, at least until my rotor shorted. I seem to recall you have a friend with good machine skills, in that case I think I'd skim that till it's flat on a lathe, chamfer the edges of those 4 grooves slightly and shim it.

Here's a thread where I described my bumblings:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6781&start=15

Did you check the free length of the spring Aris?

N.

[Kool_Biker]

Super reference to the Mike Nixon finding Nils, re plate ovality. Thanks, this answers no question no 2 above! I will proceed to flatten properly.

And yes, my spring has sagged slightly at 30.71 mm instead of 31.24 mm. Will look to shim for this.

P1060769.jpg

[Want2ride]

I know this is an old posting but I'm using it to list some info on a bearing and a possible substitute since the Honda part is NLA. In my part diagram/fiche the bearing towards the center of the motor on the alternator is item #25 in the picture and Honda part numbers 91005-422-044 and 91005-422-014. The bearing once pulled out was a Koyo DG1740RKF as shown on the bearing side. I could not find anything on that PN, so took it to my local bearing shop. They measured and matched it to Koyo 62032RSC3, which seems the same dimensionally. I hope this saves someone some searching for the right part.

[steve murdoch icoa #5322]

Thanks for the info.
An added bonus i have found that ones sourced from a bearing shop are usually cheaper than the ones from Honda.

[Rick Pope]

Yep, I used to sell the bearing/seal kit for $20. The bearings are 6201 outer and 6203 inner. The seal is a standard item as well, but I found the cheapest place was from Honda.

[divan]

Old post and Aris solved his problem; but I thought I'd just confirm from experience what Dave pointed out long ago: the seal will install backwards, and work fine -- for a while. But with time it can lead to very nasty effects. Way back in 1996 I did the same thing just before a long summer trip from Wisconsin to Austin, TX, around 1000 miles each way and two months riding around Austin before returning home. No noticeable problems until about halfway back to Wisconsin, when a decided clunking began on the alternator side. Didn't know what the problem was, but it was bad, so rented a U-haul and brought the bike home. The seal had gone finally and the alternator shaft at the bearing was pretty much burned up and destroyed -- surprised it still turned. In those days you could still get parts from Honda, and so I was able to rebuild the alternator -- but a very expensive lesson learned.