CBX Racing

CBXs, new bikes, old bikes, cars, trucks, general chat, off topic, this is the place to post it.
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Syscrush
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Re: CBX Racing

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Warwick Biggs wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:47 pm
Yet another Italian 6 cylinder - the MV - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlS-6Wx8xok
Very cool, thanks for sharing!
Phil in Toronto
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Pics of Perry, my '79.

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Re: CBX Racing

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Nor I Phil.

In 1960's Italy things were changing but it was still a very young country emerging from the wreckage of WWII. It was unthinkable for a young paesano or contadino to confront a member of the ruling Duchy class.

But it did happen on one memorable occasion and it involved the only time Giaccomo Agostini ever stood up to the great Italian industrialist, Count Agusta and it was over a 6 cylinder motorcycle.

Agusta's dominant MV's were under assault from the Japanese 2 strokes and like Soichiro Honda he considered 2 strokes to be the devil's child. So, again like Honda San, he set his engineers the task of polishing off his earlier 500cc 6 cylinder racer but this time with a 4 valve head and in 350 guise. This became the MV350C6. He gave it to the World Champion to test and Ago promptly said 'mi refiuto' or 'get stuffed I'm not riding that thing'. This would normally invoilve the youngster being hung by his testicles from the nearest church tower but the Count instead hired another rider and for another 4 years they worked on developing the Italian 6. Ago tried it again in '71 and was just as adamant. Too fat, too heavy, too much altogether. The Count insisted right up to the point where his second rider was killed on the thing ending Italy's great history of public road races at Riccione.

The MV 350C6 is one of the rarest bikes on the planet. In fact only one example exists and here it is courtesy of Oz Photo journalist
Phil Ainsley ( Yes he who took earlier pics of the Lump at the Island Classic).
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Re: CBX Racing

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Earlier we discussed the idea of gear driven cams on the CBX. Well, check out the MV. Not only does it have gears where the CBX has a chain but look at the carburetor configuration and in particular the inlet tracts. Yes, they are angled, just like the CBX. Did Honda get the idea from the Count. No doubt. And that head is remarkably similar to the CBX too.
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Re: CBX Racing

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Of course it had a fully adjustable steering head for racing but look at the bracing. Is it any surprise Ago did not like the way the thing handled?
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Re: CBX Racing

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Even the backbone frame bears more than a passing resemblance to the CBX.

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Re: CBX Racing

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So, there you have it. The CBX was inspired by French and Italian designs and altho' the Honda Corporation was very Japanese the CBX was truly multicultural with some even 'Made in America'.

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Re: CBX Racing

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A final observation about the development of the CBX; a bike well accepted as a classic, or even an icon of excess.

Many years ago when my law firm was pioneering copyright law on behalf of software giants that are now household names but back then were garage start ups I was like most lawyers fixated on protecting property rights. Now as a geriatric motorcyclist with a lifetime of experience I find myself looking at innovation and human development thru' a different lens So here is an apt quote that I think applies just as well to the development of the CBX or really, any serious human endeavour -
"This is how great intellectual breakthroughs usually happen in practice. It is rarely the isolated genius having a eureka moment alone in the lab. Nor is it merely a question of building on precedent, of standing on the shoulders of giants, in Newton's famous phrase. Great breakthroughs are closer to what happens in a flood plain: a dozen separate tributaries converge, and the rising waters lift the genius high enough that he or she can see around the conceptual obstructions of the age." — Steven Johnson

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Re: CBX Racing

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Very interesting story, and beautiful photos. Thanks for sharing!
Phil in Toronto
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Pics of Perry, my '79.

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Re: CBX Racing

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Each time I ride the NC30 it seems to rain. I did a few laps today and there was no sign of the compression leak which was encouraging. It was too slippery to do more as I was on slicks but tomorrow I will take the wets and see how it goes over race distance.

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Re: CBX Racing

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The genuine Honda head gaskets fixed the compression leak so that is good but we had some minor issues still to sort out. I was having to pump the front brake lever meaning there was still air in the system after installing a new master cylinder and cleaning up the caliper pistons and re-doing the seals. I did not have any fluid or my fluid lines so I just had to ride around that during qualifying.

Also the motor was running way too rich in the humid conditions and fluttering and flat over 12,000 rpm but again, something I couldn't quickly fix. The first qualifying session was wet so a quick wheel change had us on wets but by the time my session started a dry line started to emerge and I didn't have time for another change so we went out on the wets but I was 3 or 4 seconds off my best times. The wheels were changed again for qualifying 2 and we were looking good until those who had not had wets in Q1 were able to move ahead so one step forwards and 2 back.

Next morning a quick brake bleed had the lever operating properly and removing the air cleaner restored my missing rpms up top so we were ready to race. My grid position on the third row meant I had to overcome my usual poor starts which I did not manage until the last race of the day. This was the P6 Master of Mac Park where all the period 6 bikes were competing irrespective of capacity or class. There were large capacity superbikes as well as pure race bikes from 125 2 strokes to 1,300 cc 4 strokes and me on my little NC30 400.

I finally managed a really good start and immediately moved over to the left for the tight Turn 1 left hander. I knew the riders on the outside would be quicker on the exit but by standing my thing on it's nose and holding it as tight as possible I was able to make up quite a few places and block others. Most importantly I was ahead of my main rival of the weekend, a light weight rider on a CB250RR with whom I had been battling in the earlier races. I knew if I kept the door shut he would have to go the long way around and his superior corner speed would be frustrated. I also knew he could not outbreak me and did not have the power to pass on the straights. Then one of the riders ahead of me on a fast KR250 Kwacker crashed and then the CB400R behind him ran off and re-joined well behind me. Then I only had an RS250 V4 and a ZRX in front of me and a podium beckoning.

I knew I could not catch the factory racer nor the wheel standing superbike so I was not looking in front but I was looking over my shoulder as I could hear a howling 18,000rpm rpm RR hard on my tail. On the penultimate corner I did something I had not done all weekend and missed a gear. I had to go down 2 gears for that corner and the second down change did not feel positive. Sure enuf' when I opened the throttle to drive thru' the corner I was a gear higher and it was just enuf' for my diminutive friend to pass me on the exit.

So my best results were a string of 4ths including in the prestigious last event.

Now it has been commented upon that at 185 cms or 6'1" in the old money and 85kgs I am a bit big for the little NC30. This is true and the CBX is a more comfortable bike for my size. Hopefully, it will be ready for the National Championships in a month but what I do need to do b4 then is lift the ride height on the NC30 so that I can tip it over further and gain a bit more corner speed. You can see from the attached pics that with a limit of around 55 degree banking angle I am giving away too much in the corners. The first pic by my pit Queen Fran shows the winner of the main event on his immaculate RS250 Honda in the foreground with me chasing in the back ground. The other 2 show the respective positions of the eventual third place getter and my NC30.
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Re: CBX Racing

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That's an exciting writeup and some really nice photos! It sounds like you made that RR rider really earn his bronze - great work and thanks for sharing!
Phil in Toronto
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Re: CBX Racing

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Thanks Phil, he works in the industry for Harley Heaven selling lumpenmass but his little racer could not be any more of a contrast. He was coincidentally parked next to me in the pits so we had plenty of time to chat and he seemed very laid back and tolerant of his customer bases' stylistic approach to m/c's.

Now what do you do when you find a 1" long M6 screw lying in the belly pan? You go looking for where it might have come from. 2 hours later with the bike more or less stripped and none the wiser, you put it to one side knowing that whatever it has vibrated out of will eventually fail at the worst possible time.

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Re: CBX Racing

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I plan to see Roly at the track tomorrow to find out how work is progressing on the Lump. We are hosting a round of his Club Hartwell's Championship so he cannot avoid me.

The work he is doing is as much about reliability as increased performance. The weakest part of the CBX motor is the connecting rods and taking weight out of the crank will allow it to spin up faster but reduce torque so the motor will be operating at higher revs for longer - well beyond the original design envelope. However, it will still not be anything like the full-on factory race bikes I used to ride back in the 70's.

The Honda RC's and even the road bike Mach IV based air cooled Kwacka H2R racers all used extensive amounts of exotic magnesium in place of aluminium (cases, carbs, suspension, wheels, you name it) meaning they were extremely light and of course weight or mass is the enemy of lap times. Greg Hansford's air cooled factory 750H2R that I raced against in the 70's was not greatly more powerful than the big road bikes of the era with a bit over 100 hp but it only weighed 131 kgs. Even the brake rotors were made of aluminium but plasma coated! At the time the Oz Team Kawasaki Australia bikes were the most developed in the world and like Honda the Kawasaki factory preferred to do most of their race development in Oz. That later resulted in Greg dominating the 250 and 350 World Championships in 78/79 on the KR's as well as winning numerous F750 races while in Europe. Meanwhile Honda developed their first proddy racer in the CB1100R in Oz as well as the RC30, again with extensive use of magnesium. An HRC RC30 is very different to a customer RC30.

While discussing Greg and the CBX era it is worth noting that he was the senior Kawasaki rider to Eddie Lawson in the 1980 Suzuka 8 Hour when they were beaten by the pairing of Kiwi Graeme Crosby and Wes Cooley (who recently passed away), American Journalist John Ulrich famously asked, "What have you guys done to Wes Cooley" after he returned from a torrid racing season in Oz and NZ in '77. Prior to leaving the US he had never finished an AMA road race higher than 7th. But after being taken under Warren Willing's wing and competing in the large number of highly competitive local races including finishing 2nd to Greg's TKA team mate Jeff Sayle in the NZ series. He went on to win the inaugural Suzuka 8 hour in '78 with Mike Baldwin and then became US Superbike Champion in 1979.

Greg was later sadly killed racing cars but his arch rival in Oz in the 70's, TZ750 rider Warren Willing went on to guide Suzuki's GP efforts for decades as did another local Oz racer of the 70's and old Phoenix clubmate of mine, Jeremy Burgess with Honda and Yamaha. Burgess guided Mamola, Gardner, Doohan and Rossi to countless world championship wins on a variety of machinery. Racing in Oz in the 70's was huge and continues to this day to have a disproportionate influence in world motor racing. It is all based upon a healthy club racing scene.

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Re: CBX Racing

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Roly has posted the attached pic on the Oz CBX Owners page. My motor is out with carbs off ready to be stripped. The Oz annual CBX rally is this w/e so he has been attending to getting member's bikes ready. It does not leave much time for fitting the new barrels, new shells, shaved and balanced HRC spec crank, CrMo rods and slightly larger high comp pistons and then tuning on the dyno. With only a week and a half b4 the National Championships it will be a race in itself to have the bike ready.

A couple of things to note; the large round alloy cover where the alternator used to be and the short equal length rubbers for the JB 'V'' shaped CR Special carbs that make tuning and fitting so much easier. For those of you for whom fitting the CV's is a pain that is a complete doddle compared to fitting TIMS' straight bank of CR's and Bito Sans' jobbies are so much better. Also, the skimming off the top of the primary drive chain cover so I have room to undo the drain screw on #4 carby. Not visible is the chamfering of the cases around the countershaft sprocket to fit a 20 tooth sprocket - quite a bit larger than the stock 15 tooth sprocket. Little things that allow significant performance gains are what steady development is all about.
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Re: CBX Racing

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While waiting for the CBX I have also been making changes to the NC30. Some fibre-glassing to clean up past crash damage to the fairing and fresh paint so it looks a bit better. Here are some pics. You may see that I have increased the seat padding a lot to about 6" to give me more legroom and then trimmed it in red vinyl so I can slide across it a bit easier. The red is to make it go faster. I've also modified the seat pad fastenings so I can detach it quickly and then get the tank off to access the motor without pulling the fairing off.

Other little things to save time are not evident like fitting M6 U bolt clips to the fairing to attach the belly pan. They are easier to manage than dzus clips and as the pan has to be off for scrutineering you don't want to have to waste time on your knees in the pits fiddling with fasteners when your session may be next. I have also fitted new clip ons that are an inch higher and have a less severe down angle. Again, to improve the ergonomics. Especially on a small bike it is important for me at 6'1" to feel comfortable. If you don't feel good on the bike you are not going to be able to ride it well. Finally a fresh set of Bridgestone slicks even tho' the old ones had another day or 2 left in them.

I spent the best part of a day raising the rear shock ride height by all of about 2 mm. This should make it turn just a bit quicker. Not that it was a slouch but it was a tiny bit reluctant to go from extreme lean on one side to flip flop over to maximum lean on the other side. I am also hoping it will save the side of the toe scrapers on my size 9's. I have to keep Sikaflexing them (cheaper than new Alpinestar scrapers). Its OK for Moto GP stars to replace their kit for each race but pensioners have to economise.

It is still running a bit rich so I have to check the float levels and make sure the air jets are all clean and then synchronise the carbs with a vaccuum hose and it will be ready. Me too. Cutting out alcohol I have dropped over 5 kilo's. Hopefully another few will disappear b4 the races.

Then there is the admin side of hosting the Championships. My main task is dealing with the added complexities around SARS covid 19 and some of the legal aspects of conducting a large event. As a Club we have given over all the pit garages to our guests and we will be putting up some large marquees for our own use but that also involves additional farnarcling around that I would prefer to have avoided. Then I am anticipating an 11th hour 1,000 klm dash to Melbourne to pick up the CBX, assuming Roly finishes it in time. Am I feeling a bit anxious? You betcha' I am!
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