CBX damaged cylinder fins

twinegar · Post by **twinegar** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:52 am

Being a retired GM guy I have kept tabs on what the big 3 have been doing and they were postured for a comeback when the mortgage crisis dragged the economy down. Had things stayed relatively stable GM would have been on an even keel with Toyota by late 2009 or 1010. It was just an unfortunate happenstance that the economy tanked when it did. Ford is in the best shape of the three but would need assistance by 2010 if sales don't improve.

Take a look at this Will: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28108346/

Again, I don't like placing non motorcycle topics here but this is so important to a lot of people and even people that don't realize that they are related to the industry.

cbxtacy · Post by **cbxtacy** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:32 am

Well, they almost had a bailout. Congress had one set up and one of the conditions was workers salaries drop to a level similar to workers in Japanese owned car manufacturer plants in the USA in 2009. The unions refused and said they'd drop wages to that level by 2011. So congress didn't send the bailout through. $14 billion I think.

twinegar · Post by **twinegar** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:02 am

It looks like the Treasury Department will pick it up now that the Senate nixed it. Being a life long Republican I knew it wouldn't pass. The Republican's saw an opportunity to shed the UAW and purposely imposed demands that were destined to fail. Their time would be better spent forcing our so-called trading partners to stop imposing tariffs on our products. Considering that about 30% of auto workers are Republican the next election might prove interesting. Nafta could have been successful had "no trade restrictions" been part of the agreements. The European Union added this and collective bargaining (unions) to there version of Nafta and it is working well. Trade unions have negotiated some unfair items over the years that I have complained about but overall they created a safe workplace and created the largest, most successful middle class in history. Had they not offered a path for the poor to become part of the middle class the U.S. would have remained at 1920 levels with the very wealthy accounting for about 3% and the other 97% being very poor.
I apologize for the rant but I am concerned about our America and its survival.

Don #6141 · Post by **Don #6141** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:08 pm

Until GM can get it's $73 per hour labor costs much closer to Honda and Toyotas $44 I just don't see how they can make a 'comeback' . . . . not even to #3. This assumes of course they could make a car comperable to what the competition is now selling. With the union standing firm, that car would have to cost $1500 to $2K more and I just don't see enough customers happy with the idea of paying extra for what has been an inferior product for quite some time now

Personally, I would prefer a bankruptcy where a judge would then tell them what they can and can't do . . . . I don't see the unions voluntarily making enough concilations otherwise - They would rather see GM go away entirely than allow them to be competitive . . . .

Don

EMS · Post by **EMS** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:26 pm

I read somehwere the cost for comparable cars is within $250.- One thing people very often miss when they compare labor cost between, let's say, a car plant in Michigan and one in the south is the difference in productivity.
Southern states have a much higher fluctuation in their workforce, because the guys prefer to go fishin' when the weather gets nice.....
I still think though, the problem with GM, Ford and Chrysler is compensation. On both ends. In the workforce you have the fork lift driver who makes $100,000.- a year with overtime and on the top, you have management that has an addiction to fame and stardom and excessive paychecks. Have you realized how late you could see pictures in Automotive News, for example, of Wagoner still smiling?
Does anyone know what the name of the Honda or Toyota president is and how much they make?
When Daimler Benz bought Chrysler, Bob Eaton, then-president of Chrysler made $18 Million a year. His new boss, Juergen Schrempp, made $ 3 Million. No surprise that Eaton didn't last very long. And then these geniuses from Cerberus brought in a hardware store guy as the man at the helm. For years the auto-industry has suffered from being run by people with financial backgrounds, not car guys. That's why they don't have products people want.

twinegar · Post by **twinegar** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:23 pm

Here are links so you can read some facts about our industry and union:
http://gmfactsandfiction.com/
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 8811170379
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/opini ... .html?_r=1

New GM employees are making about $14.00 not counting the cost of benefits and GM is quickly phasing out the old gang that make $20+ per hour. Legacy costs are what GM has that the newer transplants like Toyota and Honda don't have and it is their biggest expence. The U.S. auto makers have about a million retirees versus all the transplants having less than 1000. When I retired in 04 I was making about $23.00. There are several things giving the transplants an advantage but quality of product isn't one of them. It is a myth that American cars are inferior, and they are winning more and more awards to prove it. No matter how much information is put out there proving that our product is as good as anyone's the myth is perpetuated. All of the reasons bloggers stated for letting the big 3 fail was based on misinformation and myth and if I tried to blog it I was called a highschool dropout or worse so I logged out. Last night the UAW and Senator Corker -R had a deal worked out to move retiree health care costs to medicare and another program which would bring GM into line with other auto companies and a handfull of my fellow Republican's voted no anyway. These Nafta-ites are determined to eliminate all industry from America which will result in the U.S. becoming a 3rd rate economy. All foreign auto companies are supported by their governments and several are prepared to invest in their's if the economy continues to tank. They are all hurting right now.

Foreign companies build plants here partly because we have a better work ethic than in their home countries and partly because of the money incentives our federal and state governments.

twinegar · Post by **twinegar** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:49 pm

....................anyway, they will get the bridge loans from the Treasury Department and I would urge you to keep your eyes and ears on what you see happening as all 3 companies make a comeback over the next couple of years. Also keep an eye on what the UAW does to help this come about.

Anyone want to buy a new CL350 seat?

cbxtacy · Post by **cbxtacy** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:05 pm

will it fit on a CBX?

twinegar · Post by **twinegar** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:12 pm

Pretty funny but yea, I have found that you can make anything fit on anything if you try real hard. If you don't believe it look at some of the home customized bikes on Ebay. Some of those aftermarket seats they put on the old CB750's makes me want to yak.

I do have a like new Corbin CBX seat that I will be listing at Ebay and Craigslist. Being Mr. OEM I replaced it with the original CBX seat.

Don #6141 · Post by **Don #6141** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:35 am

The Malibu hybrid price begins at $25,555 and it gets a paltry 27 MPG and cannot move an inch without it's gasoline engine running. The Camry hybrid begins at $25,860 (and is cheaper if the Malibu is equipped the same) and it gets 34 MPG and can be driven around town on battery power alone. Only a true 'GM believer' would rate a Malibu as an equal car to a Camry . . . . and the sales numbers back that up. If it's not a better car, Toyota is fooling lots of people . . . . but the repair costs per car also say otherwise

I agree the workers themselves are more similarly paid here lately and that the 'problem' is the other costs the union has added to the mix . . . . like paying a laid off worker 95% of their salary for two years. The number of paid days off for a GM worker is more than double that of a non-union Honda or Toyota worker as well

I drove GM cars for the better part of 30 years and only moved across the fence when hit in the head by the obvious. Since my priorities have changed over the years (I haven't bought a car in the last 10 or 12 years which doesn't get at least 30 MPG) the American made pickings have been pretty slim - By and large, GM cars which got 30 or better were usually something made elsewhere and rebadged - Is an Aveo a good car? I don't know, but I don't think it's made in Detroit or anywhere else in the USA, while you can buy a 30 MPG Honda, Toyota or Mazda which is made right here and it will have much better resale value as well

What's an 'American Car' these days? Some of them we think are really 'American' are assembled in Canada or Mexico . . . . while many 'foreign' cars are made right here

Don

cbxtacy · Post by **cbxtacy** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:50 am

Dodge Dualie Diesel's are still American. Last time I checked Mexico was still part of the North American continent. Yes that's right they're now a Mexican made truck. Toyota Tundra's come into the USA at Tecate. Lot's of Honda's come from Ohio and Alabama. Porsche Boxster's are not German but come from Finland. Mercedes SUV's? Alabama. Hyundai? Alabama. BMW sports cars? South Carolina. Nissan-Tennessee. Given time and it will be (eventually) a one world economy. Great Britain used to own India. Tata (India's largest car manufacturer) now own's Jaguar (sorry Larry). I hauled new cars to dealers for 3 years. It's really interesting to read the little stickers on new cars that has the origin and percentage.

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:08 am

Unlike the big three, aren't all these southern state based auto manufacturers non union shops?

EMS · Post by **EMS** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:12 am

twinegar wrote:
Foreign companies build plants here partly because we have a better work ethic than in their home countries and partly because of the money incentives our federal and state governments.

Now, that's a myth! Better work ethic than in Japan or Germany? I guess the UAW invented that "fact". Have you ever read productivity statistics?
And as far as the incentives are concerned, any government of any (industrial) country and /or state in the world will give a company incentives to create new jobs.
The main reason any foreign company builds plants here is to follow one of the basic rules of economics, which is to produce as close to the site of the market as possible.

cbxtacy · Post by **cbxtacy** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:10 am

The bottom line is we don't want any of the big three to fail but I believe they need to seriously rethink their production/pay/retirement programs.

twinegar · Post by **twinegar** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:32 am

Laid off auto workers ""don't" get 95% of their pay. That myth is as old as the hills. Having been laid off several times I received the normal unemployment check like everyone else with a supplemental benefit paid by GM bringing the total amount to about 75%. I am not sure where all this hostility towards union workers comes from but when we retirees hired on everyone wanted a union job. They aren't highschool dropouts and a lot of college grads work there. There have been union excesses over the years that I have raised hell about but they create a safe workplace and prevent management misbehavior. Unions also created the middle class and standard of living that the rest of the world can only dream about.

Mercedes Benz stated that they built a plant here partly because of the American work ethic. German workers won't work weekends or overtime. The stories about lazy union workers is old news and you can see for yourself by taking a free tour of the nearest facility. I worked back when people were playing around and not coming to work and those days are gone. They have reduced the workforce by tens of thousands and they have a lean machine now.

I buy American whenever possible and if my car needs a generator replaced after 80,000 miles I don't blame it on poor workmanship. A little loyalty to the country we live in isn't too much to ask. When all this nonsense began I drove by the foreign car dealerships to see how full their repair lots were and they had the usual lineup like any lot. Our hybrids may be playing catch-up but I would by one anyway just to support this country. I retired from the Malibu plant and saw all the awards and praise that particular model receives and haven't heard any complaints until now.

Harley Davidson built crap years ago but they reversed that and have taken their place at the top once again. American car companies have done the same and will be back on top once again once all the misinformasion is dispelled.