R&D platform


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Jeff Bennetts
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Re: R&D platform

Post by Jeff Bennetts »

bobcat wrote:me thinks you are missing something here ! the CBX is unique in the fact that you cant slot the cam gears(sprockets) as the sprockets
are what the bolts thread into . the cam FLANGES must be slotted ,unlike any other OHC motor i have ever seen ! all others you slot the sprockets
as the threaded bolt holes are in the cam flange. with ALL DUE RESPECT, I submit that ,although i am a "newbe" to the forum , i have been around
the track a few laps ! if you feel the need to slot the cam gears, keep me posted !i'd like to know your procedure !

bobcat
Yes you are correct, I'll be more specific. You need to slot the bolt holes in the flanges of the cams where the sprockets mount so the sprockets can rotate past the factory settings. Okay now that we have the procedure out of the way please address why you think you will be able to pre-degree a set of cams and have them work at their optimum compared to someone doing it with the motor in front of them considering all the variables.

Again with all due respect, the cam adjustment (degreeing procedure) will be much more precise when done with the cams in the bike that they will eventually reside in, not in a mockup motor.

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Re: R&D platform

Post by bobcat »

thanks Dave !
tensioners are one area i hope to have an answer for very soon ! unless someone out there has already tried it ,i am looking
at using the CB1100F tensioners in the X as i did in my CB900F , no mods necessary. although the top(short chain)tensioner
is not that much different ,the lower (long chain) tensioner is far superior to any other of the F model tensioners . might know
for sure by the end of the day if it will work in the X !

bobcat
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Re: R&D platform

Post by bobcat »

Jeff Bennetts wrote:
bobcat wrote:me thinks you are missing something here ! the CBX is unique in the fact that you cant slot the cam gears(sprockets) as the sprockets
are what the bolts thread into . the cam FLANGES must be slotted ,unlike any other OHC motor i have ever seen ! all others you slot the sprockets
as the threaded bolt holes are in the cam flange. with ALL DUE RESPECT, I submit that ,although i am a "newbe" to the forum , i have been around
the track a few laps ! if you feel the need to slot the cam gears, keep me posted !i'd like to know your procedure !

bobcat
Yes you are correct, I'll be more specific. You need to slot the bolt holes in the flanges of the cams where the sprockets mount so the sprockets can rotate past the factory settings. Okay now that we have the procedure out of the way please address why you think you will be able to pre-degree a set of cams and have them work at their optimum compared to someone doing it with the motor in front of them considering all the variables.

Again with all due respect, the cam adjustment (degreeing procedure) will be much more precise when done with the cams in the bike that they will eventually reside in, not in a mockup motor.
we shall see !
Bob
82 CBX, 81 CBX, CB1100F, 79/82 CB900F (avatar)

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Re: R&D platform

Post by Jeff Bennetts »

Okay bob.

Now for the other part of your endeavor, that is something just about everyone here can benefit from. If you don't have a stash of CBX spares, most members here realize how hard its becoming to get a hold of some of the ever growing number of discontinued parts it takes to rebuild, restore or just maintenance our CBX's.

Quite awhile ago while visiting a long time ICOA member Rich Gerhold, he showed me a catalog that listed all the current Honda makes and models and their interchangeable parts by part number. I don't remember if it was a Honda publication or not but it would be a great guide to use now that parts are becoming scarcer. I know Jan has contact with Rich's son maybe he could ask if he came across it while going through Rich's stuff after he passed.

There also was a thread started here on the forum some time back which people listed discontinued parts they thought were relevant to find a source for.

I'm sure you're aware that some of the current CBX part vendors do some reproduction and refurbishing of parts so unless you can do that and offer a better price you may want to pass on those items and concentrate on other things.

Either way good luck and keep us posted.

jb

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Re: R&D platform

Post by bobcat »

Thanks for the advice and info. Jeff . actually i wasn't looking at directly interchangeable parts but O.E.M nonetheless .
for example , my CB900F has 4th over CBX pistons, 1100Fvalves ,valve springs and tensioners, a CB750F cyl. head and all but
the cams is O.E.M Honda .(cams are very mild Andrews). oh i misspoke ! carb slide needles are F.P.T. ZX6R Kawasaki !
displacement 930cc , compression ratio 11.75/1 . then there's the rest of the bike..........

bobcat :techie-typing: too much
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Re: R&D platform

Post by bobcat »

bobcat wrote:thanks Dave !
tensioners are one area i hope to have an answer for very soon ! unless someone out there has already tried it ,i am looking
at using the CB1100F tensioners in the X as i did in my CB900F , no mods necessary. although the top(short chain)tensioner
is not that much different ,the lower (long chain) tensioner is far superior to any other of the F model tensioners . might know
for sure by the end of the day if it will work in the X !

bobcat
CB1100F will not be a bolt in item in the X , based on the stock 900F tensioner. it will require a modification or two but otherwise
looks like it will work . until i get an 1100F tensioner in my hands i cant answer the mods.question. i have one , but i'm not taking my
900F apart to get it !

bobcat
Bob
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Re: R&D platform

Post by Jeff Bennetts »

bobcat wrote:Thanks for the advice and info. Jeff . actually i wasn't looking at directly interchangeable parts but O.E.M nonetheless .

bobcat :techie-typing: too much
Yea, I understand your reasoning on that, if its no longer available form Honda for the CBX, its most likely unavailable for any other Honda model part # too.
The one place a crossover part number would still be useful though would be from private stock still out there and anyone reproducing parts. Every little bit helps.

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Re: R&D platform

Post by EMS »

Putting together a list of parts that "fit" is a mammoth task.
Putting together a list of parts that are officially "interchangeable", i.e.: used by Honda on other bikes is fairly easy.
You just need to look at the CBX parts list and the part-numbers. The Honda product code in the part-number will tell you what model the CBX "borrowed" the part from.
If the part was originally released first for the CBX ( a -422-,-469- or -MA2- product code) and is no longer available, it will not be available for other models either.
Late edition parts-lists (1990 or newer) may give you a new part-number if the original was superseded by one.
Example: 150mph speedometer. (bad one, I know :shifty: )
A lot of small original CBX parts came from the CB750SOHC (-300-,-341-) and the 1979 CB750K (-425-)
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Re: R&D platform

Post by Jeff Bennetts »

Good info Mike, you know the old saying don't you? The person who says it (types it) owns it.

When can you have the list ready?

jb

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Re: R&D platform

Post by EMS »

Jeff Bennetts wrote:Good info Mike, you know the old saying don't you? The person who says it (types it) owns it.

When can you have the list ready?

jb

:D :D Jeff, I am not the one who wants it or really needs it. I was just hinting towards a solution for someone... :techie-typing:
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Re: R&D platform

Post by Jeff Bennetts »

EMS wrote:
Jeff Bennetts wrote:Good info Mike, you know the old saying don't you? The person who says it (types it) owns it.

When can you have the list ready?

jb

:D :D Jeff, I am not the one who wants it or really needs it. I was just hinting towards a solution for someone... :techie-typing:
I hear you Mike, I do wish that I had paid more attention to the cross reference guide Gerhold had, I'd like to have one of my own.

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Re: R&D platform

Post by bobcat »

:techie-typing: :teasing-poke: :clap:

bobcat
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Re: R&D platform

Post by bobcat »

i'm still rounding up parts but should have something more to post soon !

bobcat :techie-typing:
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Re: R&D platform

Post by jonesbear »

Just rejoined ICOA. I read this thread with great interest because my 82 CBX
has a set of 79 cams degreed and installed by Bobcat.

Bought the bike with 10k miles in 1998. Loved the handling, sound, smoothness…but never understood Honda’s decision to produce the bike in such a drastically mild state of tune. Always thought they left a lot of power on the table.

When I found a set of 79 cams on eBay this spring I called Bobcat (aka Rapid Robert) & asked if they’d make a worthwhile difference on my 82. He said what he always says: research we must.

When he found that the1979 cams factory settings opened both the intake and exhaust valves at about 107.5 degrees, he called me back. He suggested “right numbers” should be at 103 intake and 105.5 exhaust. He thought the extended overlap created along with the additional lift of the 1979 cams should make a tremendous difference in useful torque and horsepower.

Now came a tough decision. If we modified my X, would this really make it the bike I imagined?

I have always hated “molested” motorcycles. Bikes “modified” by idiots who drill out the exhaust pipes or punch holes in the intake manifold because they think they know better than 1500 Japanese engineers are a travesty. They sound like crap, backfire, die at the stop lights. Hideous.

ON the other hand, Bobcat has been the only tuner I have trusted my bikes to for almost 30 years.
When he puts a pipe on a bike, it runs like it came from the factory that way. Looks right, runs right, feels right.

I finally took a deep breath & decided I’d rather know for sure than wonder.

So my CBX went to Bob in May of this year The 79 cams were installed, degreed to his suggested settings. We used the 82 stock exhaust with the cross-over tube, slow jets upped to halfway between a 35 and 38, main jets upped from 105 to 108, K&N air filter, and the needles raised .020 with a shim washer. Mixture screws about 2 turns out

I got my CBX back just in time to ride it through the hottest Texas summer since we started keeping records. Kind of like an extreme test bed: nothing like riding in 108 degree air to test the system.

To put it bluntly: WOW. The difference in the bike’s power is astonishing. Useful torque from about 3k to “Holy Crap” from about 4800 to redline. Above 6k it is truly eye-opening. It’s like Bob removed the “Clark Kent’ parts and put on the “Superman” parts

The broader powerband was exactly what I was looking for. The bike is still as perfectly civilized and well-behaved to ride as it always was…except that now when I wick it on it has the same sort of “live wire” feeling that my GS 1100E does. Stuff happens really fast.

And the SOUND: the cams deeper breathing has awakened a growl—almost a roar- as it comes onto the power band. And that’s with stock pipes. Makes me wonder how a 6 into 1 would sound.

What we were shooting for was a combination of the best OEM parts for the mighty X (79 cams, Pro-Link suspension, 39mm forks and 82 pipes), put together and tuned the way it should have been sold in the 1st place.

I think we succeeded.The riding experience is completely natural. It feels like it always was this way and we just restored what was supposed to be in the first place.

One more thing: the more I ride it, the more convinced I am that somewhere, on some dusty shelf in a Honda factory shop,are a set of cams degreed just the way Bob did mine. I can't shake the feeling that "this is how it was supposed to be".

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Re: R&D platform

Post by EMS »

jonesbear wrote: my 82 CBX
has a set of 79 cams degreed and installed by Bobcat....

…but never understood Honda’s decision to produce the bike in such a drastically mild state of tune. Always thought they left a lot of power on the table.

When I found a set of 79 cams on eBay this spring I called Bobcat (aka Rapid Robert) & asked if they’d make a worthwhile difference on my 82. He said what he always says: research we must.

".
Welcome back to the ICOA, jonesbear! God to have you. Interesting post!
I am not so sure that the cams are to be blamed for a large part of the change from "before" to "after". Consider, that only the intake cams in the 81/82 are different from the '79, the exhaust cams are exactly the same. Although Honda never officially published horsepower numbers in U.S. sales materials, inofficial numbers from Europe had the '79 at 105hp (sometimes only 103hp), the '80 at 98 hp and the 81/82 back at 100hp, with the Prolinks at significanlty higher mid-range torque levels. And that is actually what makes seat-of-the-pants feel, not horespower at 9,500 rpm. You went through some fine adjustements which may have addressed some other issues you had with your '82 which now make it run recognizably better.
I have a stock '81 which I ride 2-up a lot of times and even then it keeps up well with 79s ridden brisk. Furthermore, I can not tell much difference in performance between my 79,80 and 81.
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