Fuel injected twin turbo 79 project

[Bob Buehler]

From what I read it was 35,000 volts. That was what the article said. The package said nothing if I recall.

[Bob Buehler]

I found this photo on line and it shows a center electrode.[img][/img]

[EMS]

Bob: The part you have must be defective. If the center electrode is completely hidden inside the insulator, there is no way the spark can make it to the outside.

[Bob Buehler]

The other one they ordered in was the same way. I found another that has a screw that you can adjust to different lengths. It does not tell you anything specific as far as how strong the coil or spark is but I think they are working ok. Still can not get reliable starts out of it. Now it is acting like it is flooding immediately and I have the fuel turned all the way down to as low as I could get it to idle at. Once it started it I adjusted the fuel level down as low as I could get it with out stalling. I am at a loss at this point.

[daves79x]

Bob:

Does the system have a throttle position sensor to detect/establish the correct idle position? That causes problems in autos with fuel injection if it isn't working right.

Dave

[Bob Buehler]

Yes the system uses a throttle position sensor which I have had to reset recently. For some reason it lost its calibration. The manual made it sound like a simple process to reset but the menus that came up on the hand controller to set the closed and fully open position were not as described. Don't know exactly how I got it to take my O position and fully open position but it did. You can see Throttle position on the hand controller and the software and it is registering 0 at idle. It also has a manual idle adjustment that can be used to fine tune the idles speed.

So today once again had trouble starting it so something was still not right. I was fortunate to find a great welder that runs a supply shop and is a bike enthusiast. I brought him my exhaust pipe and bung and O2 sensor. After we got done discussing the newest Indian Motorcycles I showed him what I needed and then he disappeared from the office to the shop and came back in 10 minutes with my part all welded up perfectly. He said $10. He is a welcome find here in Williamsport. He then showed me his collection of old bike that included a perfect Bonneville 750 and a chopper that was built in 72 and still in perfect condition. He is 82 years old and still riding. He is on a can am trike now but he did say he was planning to get a new Indian.

[img][/img]

I also manage to mount the wideband O2 gauge that also is suppose to show boost pressure. It is called a failsafe gauge since you can program it to interrupt things like boost if you go too lean or rich or over boost. I am just using it to monitor my air fuel ratio and watch boost if I ever get that far.

[img][/img]

I learned something today that explains a lot of my starting problems. Note the value on the gauge is 11.8. That is a lean as I can get it. I brought the injector duty cycle time at idle down to 1.2 milseconds and that is as low as the
air fuel ratio would go. And getting it to start requires a Flood clear cycle before starting and it take several tries. Once it is running at this lowest setting the leanest I get is 11.8 or in that area. I mentioned this to a tuner that I was planning to bring the bike to and he said that most older injectors or standard injector will not work at less than 1.2 milseconds and that is why the bike shuts down when I set it to anything less that 1.2 This explains a lot but also suggest that I need a new set of higher end injectors if I want to solve this problem.

So now all we have to do is figure out what I have and what to buy. Every day brings a new lesson. I think I am going to take it to the shop to have the expert give me a confirmation/evaluation and recommendation. Its not a big deal to replace the injectors, it just require probably a lot of system removal. That may be a good time to start routing all the various lines and wires to more organized locations. Right now it looks really scary in there.

[Bob Buehler]

Having given up on trying to get it to start, I took the bike down to a shop that specializes in building high performance cars. The guy knows fuel injection systems and turbocharging very well.

We decided that we did not need new injectors and found where my extra fuel was coming from at start. Once we turned that off, we were able to get the bike to fire up with much less difficulty. I won't say the hard starting problem is completely solved but I have been able to get it to run and today I was actually able to take it out and start tweeking the fuel injection MAP. I have to say making adjustments by plugging in the lap top and typing in a change is much easier than pulling the carbs and rejetting.

The system is still more complicated than I can understand so it has been trial and error in some areas. I did get it up to boost pressure today and that is a rush. After playing around for an hour or so, I think I finally noticed what was causing my stubbles. The fuel pressure was not holding stead. I hope it was just not enough fuel in the tank. I will trouble shoot that tomorrow. I am glad I took the time to strap that little fuel pressure gauge to the dash. I never thought the fuel pressure would fluctuate and cause a problem but that is what it looks like right now.

What I did learn from the expert was that the new computers are way better and I really should upgrate the system. This system has some serious short comings. The most interesting thing I learned was that E85 is actually great for performance engines and turbo charged motors. The new computers actually recognize what type of fuel you are running and if it is a mixture of E85 and regular gasoline and adjust the system accordingly. The improvements over my 10 year old ECU are enormous.

For anyone interested hear is a screen shot of the Fuel Map I have been playing with.
[img][/img]

[Gearheadgregg]

glad to hear she fired up..i have duel electric fuel pumps on my Supercharged GL 1500 with 2 fuel pressure gauges , Dyna 3000 with timing retard also, and have changed my Mikuni HSR Flatslide float with a different Float needle from Sudco for Fuel pressure up to 5lbs so i don't bleed through the gravity feed needle and cause flooding , reading your post i am surprised your 02 sensor does not go to your ECU ? friend of mine did this FI with the (Wolf ECU) and he has had some good luck with it > http://www.jkozloski.com/efi.htm

[Bob Buehler]

Wow, you know someone with a Wolf ECU. I would really love to get a hold of him. The ECU does have an aux input for the 02 gauge but I am not sure how much adjustment of the fuel map it can make based on the signal. The new wideband 02 was not available when the system was built so I am sure that is why it was not incorporated in the setup. If I can find out enough about this ECU I may try and tie it in. I am told that fuel adjustments from the 02 sensor are helpful but not a substituted for a proper fuel map.

Regarding the fuel pressure, I just took it out after putting more fuel in the tank and that helped but I still have some stumbles. I may have to take out the clear sight glass filter. I think I might also try increasing the pressure up to 40-45 psi. The pump has a 1/2 inlet which I have had to drop down to 5/8 inch. The Pingle fuel petcock might also need to be upsized. The system circulates fuel back to the tank and has a fuel pressure regulator that is tied to the manifold pressure. I don't think it can lower pressure and I assume it increase pressure under boost but I have not seen it do that yet.

SEnd me the contact info of your friend with the Wolf if you don't think he would mind me contacting him

Thanks

[Gearheadgregg]

the only contact info i have is his E-mail (kozmic@fcol.com) Jeff Kozlowski

[steve murdoch icoa #5322]

Bob, the vast majority of the engine tech on your bike is beyond my comprehension but i have enjoyed following your trials and tribulations.
So you say computer tuning is a tiny bit easier than carb removal and a jet dance, do ya?

[Bob Buehler]

Bob, the vast majority of the engine tech on your bike is beyond my comprehension but i have enjoyed following your trials and tribulations.
So you say computer tuning is a tiny bit easier than carb removal and a jet dance, do ya?

That statement might not be entirely true. Changes are easier but getting the entire thing right is not. Maybe on the new computers. The guy I went to see said anybody can through an computer on a vehicle and let the 02 sensor do the tuning but you won't get the most out of the system. He said the system needs to be tuned right and then let the 02 sensor make small changes over time once you start driving the vehicle. This is what is meant by the car learning how you drive. He said you can set how much and how fast the 02 sensor can modify things. Sounds so cool.

[EMS]

Bob: I wish you could exchange issues and ideas with Stefan Jung from Germany. Years ago, he built a fuel injection system for his Moto Martin and after that another bike with a supercharged CBX Motor and FI.
I visited with him and wrote several articles back then for CBXWorld. I remember he wrestled with the tuning and mapping of the FI also and was able to find some help.
Unfortunately, I haven't heard from Stefan in a long time and he hasn't been here in a while.
I will see if I have my original manuscript for the first FI article.

[Bob Buehler]

Bob: I wish you could exchange issues and ideas with Stefan Jung from Germany. Years ago, he built a fuel injection system for his Moto Martin and after that another bike with a supercharged CBX Motor and FI.
I visited with him and wrote several articles back then for CBXWorld. I remember he wrestled with the tuning and mapping of the FI also and was able to find some help.
Unfortunately, I haven't heard from Stefan in a long time and he hasn't been here in a while.
I will see if I have my original manuscript for the first FI article.

That is very interesting since I think it was Stephan that I contacted long ago about the fuel Injection system or it may have been Egli racing maybe. I ran across the printed copy of the email. I will have to look at it again. I know they were in Germany. That was who gave me Kerstens Vogles name.

The system worked well yesterday once I got it running again but I still have an intermittent stumble/misfire that did not seem to change with fuel map adjustments or timing adjustments. My fuel pressure is steady and I bumped it up to 45 psi. I and now thinking it must be an intermittent ignition trigger malfunction. I think I would have to put the bike on a dyno and hook up an oscilloscope to check out how clean the trigger signal is. For now I am just going to check through all my connections and move the ECU and ignition module. There were a couple of times the bike wound up flawlessly so I don't think it is fuel. It feels more like a misfire. Plus the 02 meter says the mix is good sometimes it was at 14 to 1 or slightly less. I cannot see how my fuel could be off enough to cause the stumbling unless the injectors are not flowing steady. They were just cleaned and flow checked.

[Gearheadgregg]

you may try checking your voltage again while running, i have a Amp gauge to monitor, Electric fuel pumps put a lot of extra draw on your charging system, could be breaking down your spark at higher rpm ? when i Arm the Nitrous it turns on my second Fuel pump and pulls the voltage down also