upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby EMS » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:27 am

Randall: I like your approach. Very well put. Short, and, I must say, more convincing than anything else. 8)
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Mike Cecchini » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:05 am

[quote="Randakk"] <snip>

I’ve seen the unnecessary heartache this (DOT 5) can cause if installed carelessly or when the owner/mechanic does not realize this switch has been made previously. I feel that my recommendation is appropriate and reasonable for my audience.

<snip>

I hear you loud and clear Randall. God knows there's 20%--30% out there that could mess up a peanut 'n butter sandwich........but that dosen't mean the rest of us shouldn't educate ourselves and enjoy an excellent product like DOT 5 silicone brake fluid.

With CBX rear master cylinders dropping like flies because so many of us don't use our X's and we forget to change-out the DOT 3/4 fluid on regular intervals......and new master cylinders are damn hard to find.....we either have to sleeve the master cylinder ($$$)..... or just change to DOT 5 and forget the whole situation. :thumupp:

I for one will continue to use DOT 5 and recommend it to anyone I think would benefit from it. As for the peanut and butter sandwidh guys...... well......they have enough other problems in life. :face:

Thanks for the discussion........ Mike
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Mike Cecchini » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:11 am

EMS wrote:Randall: I like your approach. Very well put. Short, and, I must say, more convincing than anything else. 8)



Yeah...... I hear you Mike. Some just want a simple ''yes'' or ''no'' answer to things in life, the rest of us want to learn things as we go through life. :wink:
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby EMS » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:54 am

Mike Cecchini wrote:
EMS wrote:Randall: I like your approach. Very well put. Short, and, I must say, more convincing than anything else. 8)



Yeah...... I hear you Mike. Some just want a simple ''yes'' or ''no'' answer to things in life, the rest of us want to learn things as we go through life. :wink:


No, Mike, it is not about "yes" or "no". It is about facts and how you work with them. People have different ways to accept and work with facts. And yours is not the only way. And for some it is debatable whether yours is the right way.
You have a problem accepting this and this is why you keep hammering home your position over and over and over to the point where you offend those who have a different opinion.
The collective and individual knowledge on this forum here is substantial and extensive. Many members are also members of other (motorcycle-) forums and can draw from the combined knowledge. Some may know a little more than others, but mostly the people participating in this forum don't follow one preacher blindly and get all excited and wet in the armpits when Mike Cecchini makes a post and shares his ultimate wisdom.
Funny thing, over on the "Brewer List", you always emphasize "freedom of speech" and people being able to voice their opinion. It seems though, that this only O.K. as long as they share yours.
A few minor things: I owned a motorcycle race team with two bikes competing in BoT until 2002. I do use the brakes on some of my bikes more than 50%. And while I may not succeed, when I take a bike to the track, I want to break the lap record. My personal best at Mid-Ohio is 1:46. And I also own a Corvette and it does not use DOT5.
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Mike Cecchini » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:16 am

EMS wrote:
Mike Cecchini wrote:
EMS wrote:Randall: I like your approach. Very well put.
Short, and, I must say, more convincing than anything else. 8)


Yeah...... I hear you Mike. Some just want a simple ''yes'' or ''no'' answer to things in life, the
rest of us want to learn things as we go through life. :wink:


No, Mike, it is not about "yes" or "no". It is about facts and how you work with them. People have
different ways to accept and work with facts. And yours is not the only way. And for some it is
debatable whether yours is the right way.

You have a problem accepting this and this is why you keep hammering home your position over and
over and over to the point where you offend those who have a different opinion.
The collective and individual knowledge on this forum here is substantial and extensive. Many
members are also members of other (motorcycle-) forums and can draw from the combined knowledge.
Some may know a little more than others, but mostly the people participating in this forum don't
follow one preacher blindly and get all excited and wet in the armpits when Mike Cecchini makes a
post and shares his ultimate wisdom.

<snip>


Sorry for the delay. Son came home for a couple weeks to work on a couple Tesla roadsters in his
new job with them. Just as well..... no need to fire off a knee-jerk response to one who hoped I
would.

On to the issue at hand....... DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid in our CBX motorcycles.

Pesky things facts. They have a way of cutting through the bs and charades perpetrated. Many
times they are the fly in the ointment when hear-say opinions are flung about by those who should
really either know better or go find out the facts before they hit the keys. Also, it's so easy to
assume others don't know the diff. on such an obscure mis-understood topic.

Yeah, gotta love facts even if some don't want to hear them. We all have our preferences who we
exchange ideas with, but nobody else throws in inflammatory words to heat-up the situation like you
do vs just sitting back and having an exchange of ideas and facts........or (god forbid) leave the
topic alone and learn something. Also, you like to mix application venues of DOT 5 (where it was
never intended to be used.....racing) to persuade those that DOT 5 isn't good for so many real
world situations where it really shines. So wrong. :no

Sure must be some heavy baggage you carry around MS.......and you sure bring it into your attempts
to beat-back those who present knowledge (and facts) contrary to your opinion.

Btw..... do you have any applicable facts? ......or just outside non-applicable information ?
Hell....maybe I could learn something. That's what we're here for........right ?

Sadly, your applicable facts are so far and few between......or you're off on some tangent
trying to make a non-relevant point that has nothing to do with the original discussion.....DOT 5 in
CBX's

Btw.......debates and discussions are not "hammering home" a position. It's a "to and fro" exchange
that sometimes is 2--3 exchanges, sometimes it's 40--50 exchanges.... until persuasive reality is revealed.

Also, if you check into what a debate or what proper discussion is, it's the presentation of
documented facts and sources. This back and forth exchange is suppose to be enlightening and also
shows the research done by individuals or teams in an effort to bring about knowledge to win a
debate....... not an argument, which you seem to like.

Ok.....that's enough. I'll be off. Do let me know when you need some more information, experience
or facts about DOT 5 as it applies to street motorcycles, especially CBX's..........and especially
those CBX's that sit around so much these days as their brake systems puke their guts out with DOT 3
& 4 brake fluids....not to mention as rebuild and replacement parts vanish . None of this will happen
if DOT 5 is used. Fact.

Adios My Friend
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby daves79x » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:51 pm

None of the doom and gloom you predict with DOT 3 & 4 brake fluid will happen either if it is changed at least every 2 years. My '79 has never had either front or rear brake system apart and after 30 years, still has killer brakes for a CBX. And it sits for LONG periods of time.

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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Mike Cecchini » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:22 pm

daves79x wrote:None of the doom and gloom you predict with DOT 3 & 4 brake fluid will happen either if it is changed at least every 2 years. My '79 has never had either front or rear brake system apart and after 30 years, still has killer brakes for a CBX. And it sits for LONG periods of time.

Dave


Of course....."IF" people changed their brake fluid every 2 yrs, every thing would be fine...... but they don't. :no
"IF" they changed their engine oil every xxxx miles they would get wonderful engine life.......but they don't. :no
"IF" elephants could fly they wouldn't have flat feet .......but they don't. :no

I'm not predicting anything Dave. My crystal ball is no better than yours, but I know what happend to my three X's sat around for 5--6 yrs waiting for my life to settle down so I could get back to them. It's reality Dave..... many of us have more than one bike and 30+ yr old bikes sit around most of the time even when they are in good running order.

And like Mike Nixon said...... most people don't change their brake fluids...... ever.......and by the time they do.... it's a real cluster and the damage is already done in master cylinder bores and calipers. So what do people do ?? They go right back to the same shitty flluid that caused all the problems...... DOT 3 and DOT 4. How rediculous. Are we 15 yr. olds .....or are we mature people that can see situations and do things to prevent them from happening again ? Pick one.

Reality check Dave........ a great many people leave DOT 3 & DOT 4 brake fluid in their bikes until something bad happens...... this is where DOT 5 saves the day in so many ways.

My best..........Mike
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Don » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:01 am

Speaking of 'facts' - To further quote Mike Nixon, since most of us here consider him a preeminent motorcycle authority and more specifically, an unsurpassed CBX expert

"Silicone brake fluid has it's own pros and cons. On the disadvantage side it does not change color to tip the user to it's moisture content, and worst of all, neither accepts nor disperses moisture, making systems using it more corrosion prone, and requiring much more frequent fluid changes"

You can read his entire brake fluid dissertation in the link I posted earlier in the thread

If you don't regularly change brake fluid, at least the DOT 3/4 stuff will give you a clue looking at the color of it in the reservoir when it needs changing . . . . with DOT 5 you'll never know until it's too late

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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby EMS » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:35 am

I suggest we stop this "discussion", because it really is not one. Mike C will turn and twist and will always have the last word. (see below) And if that doesn't do it, he will send private e-mails calling people names. I went through this with him. Maybe Nils can lock this thread too.
Last edited by EMS on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Don » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:17 am

I don't think threads should be locked just because the debate gets contentious so long as everyone remains civil . . . . and those who cannot express themselves in a civil manner should find they are no longer able to participate - You can't harrass those who disagree with you either on-line or in private messages . . . . if that is happening, I think Nils should take more drastic action than locking threads

I'm sure Mike C regards Mike Nixon's words about as close to 'fact' as we're likely to find, especially in light of all the research he does before he publishes anything - Mike quoted him above . . . . I was just adding Mike Nixon's thoughts on the subject as I'm sure we all consider them relavent. He offers much in the way of scientific evidence on this subject, for those who care to read it

I'll stick the link to his article in again here, for those who missed it on the last page - It's an excellent discussion on the subject of brake fluid, done by someone all of us trust

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorc ... fluid.html

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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby EMS » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:22 am

Don wrote: I'm sure Mike C regards Mike Nixon's words about as close to 'fact' as we're likely to find,
Don


That, exactly, is extremely unlikely, as can be seen in the other DOT5 thread:

Re: Brake Fluid
by Mike Cecchini » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:34 am

Mike Nixon wrote:
<snip> The bottom line is this -- glycol fluid, though technically a less performing variety, is far more consumer friendly. Silicone fluid is not at all consumer friendly, and you MUST change it often for it to be safe and to avoid maintenance issues, whereas as I say, glycol can be neglected indefinitely (it plainly is in the most cases), with no devastating effects. Interestingly, the issue is no longer which is more fade-resistant, as the newest glycol fluids perform as well temperature-wise as the glycols.

Gycol brake fluid is "consumer friendly" ?? You mean that stuff that eats paint and holds water + brake fluid that makes that white caustic foam is "consumer freindly" ???

DOT 5 does none of this. You can pour it on your paint and leave it there...... no problem.

DOT 5 dosen't combine with water to form any cuastic foam.

DOT 5 dosen't have to be changed more often than gylocol fluid.... just the opposite...... DOT 5 lasts 3x--5x longer than glycol brake fluid.
DOT 5 is THE consumer friendly brake fluid.......not DOT 3 & 4.

Glycol (DOT 3 & 4) can't be "neglected indefinitely".......this is why DOT 3 & 4 is suppose to be changed out every 2 yrs. DOT 5 is 5--10 yrs. It's not what you ride.....it's how you ride.
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby NobleHops » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:49 pm

Re locking threads, I spent the last 12 months trying to change the tenor of the dialog here, called out a few people along the way, in private, and in the process I drove a few club members away. I'm not at all certain I accomplished anything worthwhile by doing that. I'm on several other forums too, and I very rarely see folks compare each other to 15-year-olds and repeatedly take as insulting a tone as Mike C seems to. It's too bad, there is content there in what he writes, but his delivery is irritating to me, and others. I wish you would cut that out Mike.

You guys are on your own with this kind of thing now, as least as far as my interventions go. I'm not saying that to be a dick, but it's up to you to decide what this forum is going to be like. I will tell you that in the last year we had nearly 2X the new users as the 12 months preceding, and nothing turns a new or potential user off any more than a bunch of people bickering and flaming each other. So if you want new blood and new energy in the Forum, and by extension the Club, then continue to be as welcoming as you have been and continue to support the new users and keep the tone fun and respectful.

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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Rick Pope » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:34 am

Well said, Nils.

I've taken the approach that if someone posts opposite thoughts to what I feel true, well, they're entitled to their opinions. I can choose to ignore it. If they post the same drivel over and over, they lose credibility, as though they're trying to validate themselves in the face of contrary evidence.

FWIW, we have a '47 and '49 International trucks, both with DOT3 fluid, and neither has EVER had the fluid changed. Both stop nicely.
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Mike Cecchini » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:24 pm

Rick Pope wrote: Well said Nils.

I've taken the approach that if someone posts opposite thoughts to what I feel true, well, they're entitled to their opinions. I can choose to ignore it.
If they post the same drivel over and over, they lose credibility, as though they're trying to validate themselves in the face of contrary evidence.

FWIW, we have a '47 and '49 International trucks, both with DOT3 fluid, and neither has EVER had the fluid changed. Both stop nicely.



Couldn't agree with you more Rick. Many posts go un-noticed or un-responded to for exactly the same reason(s). Either the poster got it right from the get-go and there's nothing to add......or he got it totally wrong and nobody cares. Needless to say, there's a bazillion shades of gray betweent these two extremes....but for the sake of this discussion I'll not go there.

What does concern me is the use of the word "drivel'. Why slam others posts with such words when they are presenting facts and circumstances, please.....this only aggrivates the situation and lowers the level of exchanges. Let's try and not do this here.

As far as posting over and over again, this seems to be quite necessary as people fail to read previous posts and jump into the discussion(s) with variations of the same false misconceptions we've been discussing all along........so these repeated posts are not about validating anything.....but trying to keep the record and thoughts straight for a conclusion that is clear and consistant.

Fwiw..... good to hear your 47 & 49 trucks are stopping well with 62 yr old DOT 3 brake fluid. :face:
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Re: upgrading the OEM master cylinder?

Postby Don » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:02 pm

One of the best things about the DOT 3/4 stuff . . . . he'll know when it goes bad . . . . the color changes - Drastically. It absorbs and mixes with the moisture, and that changes it's color

My 1994 Miata still has it's original brake fluid - 60,000 miles. The clutch fluid has had to be changed 3 or 4 times and both the clutch master and the clutch slave too. I credit the difference (between the fluid life in the clutch and the brakes) to the fact that the clutch master has a small air vent hole in the cap, which allows ambient air to be drawn into it with each push of the pedal . . . . because it's vented, the clutch fluid changes color about every 4 or 5 years . . . . the brake fluid on the other hand still looks like it did when the car was new. The brake master has a huge, unvented rubber bellows atop the fluid so it doesn't draw in any air

There advantages and disadvantages to everything - Like anything else, you pick the one you like the best and dislike the least and go with that. For me, that's always been the 'regular stuff'

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