For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

CBXs, new bikes, old bikes, cars, trucks, general chat, off topic, this is the place to post it.
User avatar
cbxmel
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: North Wales.UK
Location: North Wales, UK
Contact:

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by cbxmel »

Well said Phil.

Mel #1876
Bikes since 1960,BMW R27,Calthorpe 350 twin port, 50cc Maserati,C110,S90,CB92,CB77 webco 350 racekit,C72,CB450,TS125,GT380,GT750x2,Harley 45,Ariel Sq4,Vincent Rapide,NorVin shadow,GPZ750turbo,GSXR1100H,FJ1100,RC30,Moto-Martin cbx x4,CBX specials x3,79cbx x 20 & GL1500

steve murdoch icoa #5322
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 4069
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:12 am
Location: St. Catharines, On. Canada
Location: St. Catharines, On. Canada

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by steve murdoch icoa #5322 »

FalldownPhil wrote:Mike and Wyly,
This is all so unnecessary. Mike, you are like a fine wine that gets better with age and your knowledge of
the CBX is unparalleled.
Wyly, don't take it as a personal attack. It wasn't. We are not all as versed as you with internet etiquette,
particularly myself. Sometimes it can be beneficial to all concerned to just let small perceived slights go.
I promise you that when you are under attack here you will know it for sure. This is a happy place.
Now, let's talk about the election :laughing-rolling:
Very Best,
Phil

Phil, i agree with most all of what you said except for one thing.
Mike being like a fine wine? Hardly, more like a fine bier, maybe something like a Warsteiner.

LONGCLOSE
Forum Regular
Forum Regular
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:39 am
Location: Kloof, KZN, South Africa
Location: Kloof, KZN, South Africa

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by LONGCLOSE »

EMS wrote:My original post regarding this basically has all the known facts. Yes, there were black 1979s sold through the ED (European Direct Sales) and DK/DM (General Export) channels.
Check your carburetor identification, if it is a "VB61A" carb, it is an ED version, and should have a kph speedometer.
If it has a "VB60A" carb, and has a mph speedo and is a DM version, if it has a kph speedo, it is a DK version.
Z model engines had serial numbers up to 2024711 in ED bikes, so your motor number is not out of the ordinary.

If the bike is originally a South African bike, it makes all that less applicable and would put the bike in the "mystery" category.
SA bikes had VB60A carburetors, the highest engine number was 20 21598. Also, original 1979 Z bikes for SA did not have a Sport Kit (low handlebars)

There is always the possibility that a dealer changed the bodywork to black, because the customer wanted a black bike

There is absolutely no evidence anywhere regarding the number of black Z models. Honda does not have that record and I don't think anybody has.
It is safe to say, however, that all Zs that seem to be originally black are of high VIN-numbers above 20 20000, indicating they were built and sold in early 1979 and the A model colors and specs had been announced already. As production of the A did not start until June of 1979, one of the theories is, that Honda made Zs available in black to fill the early demand for that color.

Any other questions, send me an e-mail to mike.simon70@yahoo.com
wyly wrote:

but as one of the few original owners I still have my January 1978 invoice for my cbx
I think that came up before, you probably meant January 1979 as production of the CBX did not start until April 1978.
Well firstly I am a little sad that I appear to have opened up a can of beans on this thread.. but please let us all try and move on.

So as I said I was not as fortunate as some to be old or rich enough to own a CBX in 1979 at the grand age of 15! I had many bikes at this time but was limited to riding off road, in my mind the poster on the wall in late 79 was a black CBX, however it was a long time ago, one day I might find it in the attic and close this thread once and for all, finally on this point I am amazed that some of you owned these bikes from new!

So I bought this bike as a restoration project and was told at the time it was very rare as this was one of a few black ones made in late 1979 to try and boost sales, I cannot corroborate this hence the reason for coming onto this forum to learn and hopefully build some history around this bike which unfortunately is missing the original engine.

The speedo is indeed KPH, it has drop handlebars. As a qualified instrument maker I checked all of the screw threads with an eyeglass when removing the tank badges and rear tail cowl. In most cases you can tell if the screws had previously been removed for a respray, unless these were removed very carefully and refitted as such (which I doubt) there are no tell tell signs of previous removal. The carbs are VB60A and as stated I need to follow up on the other black CBX in Durban (I know of the guy through a friend). At some point I want to import this to the UK as part of my collection so if anyone can date the month of manufacture it would be appreciated.

Thank you all for your input,,

Rick Pope
ICOA Rally Director
ICOA Rally Director
Posts: 2270
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:16 pm
Location: Lawrencburg, IN
Location: Lawrenceburg, Indiana

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by Rick Pope »

Phil,
You are such a smart ass......Thank you. :lol: And you're right, you really have to know Mike to appreciate him.

Mike,
Help me out here.. There was as little as 5 s.n. diff between the first bikes going to various markets? This implies that Honda was making very small runs of each variant so as to ship a few to each marked at once? Interesting stuff.
Rick Pope
Either garage is too small or we have too many bikes. Or Momma's car needs to go outside.

daves79x
ICOA Technical Director
ICOA Technical Director
Posts: 4738
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:05 am
Location: Knox, PA
Location: Knox, PA

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by daves79x »

In either the red or silver CBX book, there is a photo of new CBXs just rolled off the line. There are Euro and US versions sitting side-by-side.

Wyly, I am in Mike's corner on this one. He has unparalleled knowledge of CBX history and serial numbers. He was explaining something only he in the world knows. Frankly, you didn't read closely enough what he wrote, or you would have seen he was confirming, not denying, your story. You indeed have one of the first 100 CBXs delivered to Canada. Your original ownership puts you in a pretty exclusive club. That may not mean a lot to you, but it does to the few of us that are original owners. Your story is just more proof of what Mike is saying.

Mike can have a short fuse and can be indeed misunderstood, but in this case, he should not have been.

Dave

EMS
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 10151
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:55 am
Location: North East OH, ICOA 3904

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by EMS »

LONGCLOSE wrote:
... few black ones made in late 1979 to try and boost sales, I cannot corroborate this hence the reason for coming onto this forum to learn and hopefully build some history around this bike which unfortunately is missing the original engine.

The speedo is indeed KPH, it has drop handlebars. As a qualified instrument maker I checked all of the screw threads with an eyeglass when removing the tank badges and rear tail cowl. In most cases you can tell if the screws had previously been removed for a respray, unless these were removed very carefully and refitted as such (which I doubt) there are no tell tell signs of previous removal. The carbs are VB60A and as stated I need to follow up on the other black CBX in Durban (I know of the guy through a friend). At some point I want to import this to the UK as part of my collection so if anyone can date the month of manufacture it would be appreciated.

Thank you all for your input,,
The month of manufacture of your bike is January 1979.
The model designation of the CBX-Z is a little misleading. Although they are all called "1979 Model", very few were built in 1979. The bike was introduced to the press and shown at several events first in 1977. Production started in April of 1978 and over 19,000 bikes - the by far largest number of all - were built in 1978. Only about 4,500 bikes were built in 1979 and I have seen only one so far from February 1979, most likely the last month of 1979 production. This bike was VIN CB1-20 23004, Engine CB1E- 20 23154 and was a Canadian version. It was for sale at VMD Mid-Ohio in 2015. Unfortunately it was later parted out by an eager businessman. As I said earlier, production of the 1980 A model started in June of 1979 in Japan and was moved to Marysville, Ohio in September.
A good spot to tell if it is a repaint, is on the underside of the tank. The underside was not fully painted but just showed overspray of the top color coat. If it is fully painted it is likely a respray. If they changed the color, you may see some of the original color.
I do not think yours is a respray.

EMS
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 10151
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:55 am
Location: North East OH, ICOA 3904

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by EMS »

Rick Pope wrote:Phil,
Help me out here.. There was as little as 5 s.n. diff between the first bikes going to various markets? This implies that Honda was making very small runs of each variant so as to ship a few to each marked at once? Interesting stuff.
Hard to say, Rick. maybe the first shipments to each country except for the U.S. were just a handful. If you look at the number sequence, there are about 830 units that must have had U.S. specs (0042 to 0870), before the first non-U.S. spec (Germany) was listed. While the U.S. bikes were significantly different from the rest of the world, all the Euro bikes had little variation among themselves. just different caution labels (France) and different speedo (U.K.), so Honda could have built a mix of bikes after the U.S. contingency.

User avatar
CBXTRA6
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:25 am
Location: Kernersville , NC
Location: Kernersville, Nth CAROLINA

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by CBXTRA6 »

FalldownPhil wrote:Mike and Wyly,
This is all so unnecessary. Mike, you are like a fine wine that gets better with age and your knowledge of
the CBX is unparalleled.
Phil

+ 1 Like he said
JP

User avatar
herdygerdy
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:48 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by herdygerdy »

+1 on Phil's comments. I am sure no harm, foul nor slight originally intended. Sometimes it pays to remember no one's going to hospital or jail (or gaol to you Northern lot) so gents, so just let it go and move on, fer chrissakes!.

Now about the election...hang on to your hats folks, it's gonna be one bumpy ride! :?

User avatar
cbxian
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Hong Kong and N.Ireland
Location: Hong Kong and N.Ireland
Contact:

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by cbxian »

Hi "LONGXXXXX?" (I wish folk would use their name!?),

There is a Section (Page 85 - 86) in the original red "CBX Book" about the black "Factory CBX-Zs", which many "experts" previously refused to acknowledge even existed. I tracked down quite a few Owners in Europe when I did the original research for the red Book. Also found CBX-Z Honda Parts referenced to the NH-1 black colour scheme offered in the Parts Manual; also original Press Adverts showing that black was being offered in Germany and France in 1979. When I asked Honda Tokyo about this directly during an interview, no one knew, and no records had been kept! During conversations though it transpired that European Dealers had wanted the option to sell black bikes as they believed this was the Market preference, especially when the GS1000E and Z1300 were available and popular in black. These Dealers were given the 'right' by Honda to re-body (or repaint) Bikes and sell them as Factory black CBX-Zs. Honda certainly did have black tail-pieces unique to the CBX-Z (not the CBX-A tail). No one knows how many black CBX-Zs were sold by Dealers, but it is definitely not many.

Yours could be an original black CBX-Z that has made its way to SA from Germany or Holland (and it does sound more like that) ... or it could have been someone who preferred the new CBX-A bodywork when it came out in SA. Are your side-panels gloss black or matt-black? Finding the old Owners back to the Original Owner would be a convincing start.

The rest of you have no excuse for these "squabbles." Look at the details in the "CBX Books" ... if it's in a Book, it must be right (hehehe)!!! In the silver Book (Page 69) I reproduced Letters from Honda to their Dealers that explain why CBXs were delayed coming into USA. According to my cousin in southern California (a Honda Dealer at the time) there was also a Long Beach Shippers Strike on at the time delaying delivery further. The first CBXs must have come into USA in late-June 1978 according to the Honda letter. They had been in Britain from late-May 1978 having been prepared by Honda UK for the IoM TT Travelling Marshalls.

Best, IAN
ian@netvigator.com
**************************
Home : ian@ netvigator.com (www.cam-hk.com)
Work : ian@udi-hk.com (www.udi-hk.com)

EMS
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 10151
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:55 am
Location: North East OH, ICOA 3904

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by EMS »

Ian: Gloss black sidecovers were only on 1980 CBXes made in Marysville, USA. None of the U.S. produced SC03 models were officially exported outside North America.
As we all know, press releases and parts book data is no evidence of options or colors of bikes really existing.
I own a 1973 Kawasaki H1 in two-tone Candy Lime Green. Kawasaki in a 1973 brochure showed a solid color green bike that nobody has ever seen in a real version.
Also, the fact that the bikes reached the market in the U.S. later, does not alter the fact that the first 800+ CBXes were all built for the U.S. market and had unique U.S. specs to set them apart from all other versions, e.g.: the high handlebars together with the mph speedometer. :-) :-)

User avatar
cbxian
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Hong Kong and N.Ireland
Location: Hong Kong and N.Ireland
Contact:

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by cbxian »

"Gloss black sidecovers were only on 1980 CBXes made in Marysville, USA. None of the U.S. produced SC03 models were officially exported outside North America."
- By asking about the Gloss side-covers, I'm trying to establish (or dismiss) if it was a set of CBX-A bodywork that had been purchased and put on this Bike.
- I own a 1980 CBX-A 'Made in Japan' that has gloss side-covers. I've also seen another Japan Bike in the flesh with the same. I suspect the Honda Spec for the new 1980 CBX-A was consistent in Marysville, USA and Sayama, Japan.


" As we all know, press releases and parts book data is no evidence of options or colors of bikes really existing. "

Folks can argue 'till the cows come home' about the different infinite details of these Models ... what I do is look at all the evidence after having personally spoken to the 'Players' and make the most common-sense Conclusions. I have a NOS black CBX-Z tail (and a NOS silver CBX-A tail) in my Collection which are referenced in Honda's Parts Manuals ... therefore I Conclude there was some reason for Honda producing those? I'd say they were producing them as Spares for Bikes that their Dealers had sold. This is then confirmed by a number of original Buyers who purchased new black CBX-Zs from Honda Dealers in Europe. From the evidence I'm convinced they exist!!

- I haven't read the "discussions" above about the first 800 Bikes, or the relevance of this? Honda Tokyo advised me that they did not keep Records like this, so there is no definitive answer, just folks' speculation. The photos taken at the Factory in March 1978 (sent to me by the Japanese Magazine, and confirmed by Honda) show different Spec Bikes were being produced in parallel (eg. Page 59 and 60). USA is Honda's biggest market so they would definitely look after those Orders ... but Europe, Australia, South Africa, and Britain are also not insignificant (and did not have Shipping Strikes going on). Seems to me Honda were sending Bikes out to everyone at the same time. The oldest Vins I found while researching were in USA, especially California ... but this question should be asked to Pete Ruff in Sacraemento and Tom in Australia as they are the Experts on this as recorded on Page 281-282 of the silver Book.

Best, IAN
***************************
Home : ian@ netvigator.com (www.cam-hk.com)
Work : ian@udi-hk.com (www.udi-hk.com)

EMS
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 10151
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:55 am
Location: North East OH, ICOA 3904

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by EMS »

cbxian wrote: - By asking about the Gloss side-covers, I'm trying to establish (or dismiss) if it was a set of CBX-A bodywork that had been purchased and put on this Bike.
- I own a 1980 CBX-A 'Made in Japan' that has gloss side-covers. I've also seen another Japan Bike in the flesh with the same. I suspect the Honda Spec for the new 1980 CBX-A was consistent in Marysville, USA and Sayama, Japan.

Folks can argue 'till the cows come home' about the different infinite details of these Models ... what I do is look at all the evidence after having personally spoken to the 'Players' and make the most common-sense Conclusions. I have a NOS black CBX-Z tail (and a NOS silver CBX-A tail) in my Collection which are referenced in Honda's Parts Manuals ... therefore I Conclude there was some reason for Honda producing those? I'd say they were producing them as Spares for Bikes that their Dealers had sold. This is then confirmed by a number of original Buyers who purchased new black CBX-Zs from Honda Dealers in Europe. From the evidence I'm convinced they exist!!
Many owners had their sidecovers painted during restoration work or put painted covers on that they bought. I have never encountered a japan CBX-A with glossy sidecovers and I had several communications with people who worked in Marysville in late 1979 who confirmed that the black glossy sidecovers were used. the only issue open to debate on this is, whether the CGR bikes also came with gloss covers or whether they were used on black bikes only. There is no argument, that black Z tailpieces ( no lid) and silver A tailpieces (with lid) exist. The latter ones were the only ones available after a certain point due to the original design being flawed and Honda replaced the one-bumper rear rails with the A model's two-bumper design and the matching tailpiece in service.


cbxian wrote:
- I haven't read the "discussions" above about the first 800 Bikes, or the relevance of this? Honda Tokyo advised me that they did not keep Records like this, so there is no definitive answer, just folks' speculation. The photos taken at the Factory in March 1978 (sent to me by the Japanese Magazine, and confirmed by Honda) show different Spec Bikes were being produced in parallel (eg. Page 59 and 60). USA is Honda's biggest market so they would definitely look after those Orders ... but Europe, Australia, South Africa, and Britain are also not insignificant (and did not have Shipping Strikes going on). Seems to me Honda were sending Bikes out to everyone at the same time. The oldest Vins I found while researching were in USA, especially California ... but this question should be asked to Pete Ruff in Sacraemento and Tom in Australia as they are the Experts on this as recorded on Page 281-282 of the silver Book.

Best, IAN
***************************
I am surprised that you of all people make that statement. It is listed quite clearly in the Honda parts-manual (again??) what the beginning (lowest) VIN number for each market version was.
According to that, VIN CB1-20 00871 was the first bike for a non-U.S. market. (Germany) then England with ...876, France followed with ..879 European Direct sales ..881 and Canada with ...1396.
All other possible versions came much later. It must be concluded, that unless there is a bike version nobody has ever heard of, all VINs from ...042 to ...0870 had to be U.S. models.
I agree- and I have said so above -that Honda most probably shipped to all important markets at the same time. It is also very likely that after Honda produced the first 828 bikes, they made all versions in parallel.
I do, however, doubt your claim that a photo of the factory showing bikes produced, was taken in March of 1978. As it is commonly accepted by everybody that production started in April of 1978.
As far as Pete Ruff and Tom Battison are concerned - Pete's "research" was largely based on ICOA owner registry and did not include many other countries. Tom used his dating largely based on the engine production date which was ink-stamped on the bottom of the engine cases. Neither Pete nor Tom have been deeply involved in the ongoing CBX history research in the last 10 years.
Due to my proximity to Marysville _ I live 1½ hours away - I was lucky enough to connect with two gentlemen who worked at the Honda plant in 1979 and were part of the CBX and Elsinore production. Their input and contribution to my own personal records were invaluable. I have also accumulated extensive information about the CBXes in Europe beginning when I bought my own Z model in November of 1978 and through ongoing contacts with German CBX owners and CBX club members. For the last 12 or so years, I have diligently collected data from CBX bikes, owners, sellers and buyers and I can assign almost any VIN-number to a production month, even for those bikes that do not have the date on the VIN plate.
I have been made fun of and have been belittled many times here and in other forums for taking this all too serious and digging into details that most are not interested in, so I have stopped sharing unless someone has a specific question and other "experts" do not have an answer or give the wrong one.

User avatar
Jeff Bennetts
Posting God
Posting God
Posts: 2408
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:38 am
Location: Ohio, USA
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by Jeff Bennetts »

And let's not forget that before I posted the 1st early generation, upgraded replacement CBX A tail in silver for my 79 Z, no one here had seen a version where the mounting hardware is on the grab rail. :think:

So, unless you have seen it with your own eyes, anything is possible, there are no CBX experts who know it all, that's what this place is for! :handgestures-fingerscrossed:

Here the link,
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10417

User avatar
cbxian
ICOA Member
ICOA Member
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Hong Kong and N.Ireland
Location: Hong Kong and N.Ireland
Contact:

Re: For Mel Watkins - Black 1979 CBX

Post by cbxian »

Hi EMS (?),

I am definitely no "expert", I just recorded in the Books what the Experts (from back in the day, with first-hand knowledge) told me.

I have never seen a Japan-made CBX-A with matt side-covers. I cannot believe that Honda would come out with the new upgraded CBX-A and use one Spec of side-cover paint in USA, and a different Spec (the old 1978/79 Spec) in Japan ... under 5,000 units, they would have made all these side-covers together at one location.
- Anyway this is not relevant to the Black CBX-Z we are trying to determine here. I asked this question to establish if the latter Bike's black bodywork could have been replaced by a set of CBX-A bodywork.

Production of CBX-Z engines had started at the Honda Waco Factory in late-March 1978 ... as the Japanese Magazine Reporters visited the Production Lines on 30th March 1978 ... so USA and other Market engines were being built side-by-side. The engines were then transported to the Honda Sayama Factory where they were mated with Frames and built up on the Production Line. The magazine advised that they visited the Final Assembly Lines in early-April 1978. These are the dates that the Magazine specifically gave me, confirmed from their Archives. I also received a photo from the "CBX Riders Club (UK)" which reportedly was taken by an English gentleman Steven Murray when he visited the Sayama Factory in "March 1978" (Page 57 red Book) ... this was second-hand information to me which I could not confirm.

I give Pete and Tom full credit for their work over the years on Vin.#s, etc. Tom's work continues. No one else came forward with this information in 2010 when I put out many calls for such via all the Forums, etc when researching for the original red Book.

As I said before (though I'm not sure why this is so important), many of the Lowest Vins I have seen over the years have come from USA, especially California. The Release date in USA had been held up as seen in the Honda Letters to Dealers, and there was Shippers Strike actions in USA delaying the CBX's arrival further. I'm happy to think we received and started to enjoy the CBX-Zs around the World roughly at the same time ... though I was only 14 years old, so may be wrong!!!

Best, IAN
*****************************
Home : ian@ netvigator.com (www.cam-hk.com)
Work : ian@udi-hk.com (www.udi-hk.com)

Post Reply

Return to “Daily Discussion: By, For & About CBXers”