New Ignition System for CBX
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New Ignition System for CBX
All
I just received a note from a new Forum member, Paul Crowe, who has a company that designs ignition systems. His company, located in Wisconsin, has recently designed an optically driven/triggered system for CBX. Here is a brief excerpt from his note to me:
I do not personally own a CBX (always wanted one though). I did however design an ignition system for it earlier this year. We used our optically triggered ignition (with full rpm multiple spark capabilities) and have sold about half a dozen world wide. I have a friend who owns several CBX bikes, and just last week John Pellew and Roland Skate (Roland Skate Creations) in Australia ordered our CBX kit. John has a 1425cc big bore kit and Roland owns a race team.
The company website is http://www.c5ignitions.com/. I don't know Paul; nor, have any personal knowledge of his product. However, when I saw the product, I thought we all should be aware of it as another option to updating/resurrecting, etc. our CBXs. Don't know prices, etc. Just thought you all might like to have this in your tech repertoire.
,
I just received a note from a new Forum member, Paul Crowe, who has a company that designs ignition systems. His company, located in Wisconsin, has recently designed an optically driven/triggered system for CBX. Here is a brief excerpt from his note to me:
I do not personally own a CBX (always wanted one though). I did however design an ignition system for it earlier this year. We used our optically triggered ignition (with full rpm multiple spark capabilities) and have sold about half a dozen world wide. I have a friend who owns several CBX bikes, and just last week John Pellew and Roland Skate (Roland Skate Creations) in Australia ordered our CBX kit. John has a 1425cc big bore kit and Roland owns a race team.
The company website is http://www.c5ignitions.com/. I don't know Paul; nor, have any personal knowledge of his product. However, when I saw the product, I thought we all should be aware of it as another option to updating/resurrecting, etc. our CBXs. Don't know prices, etc. Just thought you all might like to have this in your tech repertoire.
,
Larry Zimmer
cbxlarry@sbcglobal.net
cbxlarry@sbcglobal.net
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Thank you Larry for posting this and hello everyone. Please ask questions and I'll do my best to give you straight answers. I will also post more pictures of the kit soon. We are in the process of changing the size/style of coils we use, and will be designing a coil mount that works best with the new shape. They are smaller and provide slightly higher voltages.
If you haven't heard of multiple sparking, it's an interesting improvement that sparks 3 times instead of just once. What that helps is to burn as much incoming fuel as possible, which increases power, smooths engine idle, provides much faster starts, and reduces cylinder wash. On the CBX in particular there have been fantastic feedback of mileage increases. We guess the 6 cyl with 6 carbs is just too much for the stock ignition to handle.
Nice to meet you all.
Paul Crowe
C5 Performance
If you haven't heard of multiple sparking, it's an interesting improvement that sparks 3 times instead of just once. What that helps is to burn as much incoming fuel as possible, which increases power, smooths engine idle, provides much faster starts, and reduces cylinder wash. On the CBX in particular there have been fantastic feedback of mileage increases. We guess the 6 cyl with 6 carbs is just too much for the stock ignition to handle.
Nice to meet you all.
Paul Crowe
C5 Performance
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Any clues on what we can expect the pricing of this system to be?
Looks Very Interesting.
Thank you for your efforts
Looks Very Interesting.
Thank you for your efforts
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Paul is figuring out the fine points (hehe) of making a kit for the CB400F and I will be the first customer for it I think. Very intrigued!
Nils Menten
Tucson, Arizona, USA '80 CBX, sort-of restored :-)
Tucson, Arizona, USA '80 CBX, sort-of restored :-)
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Very Interesting, questions for you Paul.
How do your coil HT voltages compare to a Dyna coil?
Do you retain the stock mechanical advance mechanism?
What is the current consumption of your system including coils compared to stock and Dyna?
I can't read the graph on the pdf on your website but it looks to me that there is a rev limiter facility?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Goss
How do your coil HT voltages compare to a Dyna coil?
Do you retain the stock mechanical advance mechanism?
What is the current consumption of your system including coils compared to stock and Dyna?
I can't read the graph on the pdf on your website but it looks to me that there is a rev limiter facility?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Goss
Onboard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqWSsdKtd64
Bike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofjFhEd3
Bike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofjFhEd3
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
We made one set of coil mounts that needed minor changes. I should have them done later this week. The ignition itself is identical to the CB350F and CB550.NobleHops wrote:Paul is figuring out the fine points (hehe) of making a kit for the CB400F and I will be the first customer for it I think. Very intrigued!
I'm excited to be using our new improved coils for this kit!
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Goss,Goss wrote:Very Interesting, questions for you Paul.
How do your coil HT voltages compare to a Dyna coil?
Do you retain the stock mechanical advance mechanism?
What is the current consumption of your system including coils compared to stock and Dyna?
I can't read the graph on the pdf on your website but it looks to me that there is a rev limiter facility?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Goss
As you probably know, coil manufacturers shy away from quoting voltage outputs due to lack of industry standards. High compression, plug gap, engine load all play a part in the actual "working" voltage needed to create a spark. Short answer is our coils are rated at 80,000 volts. We have new ones for some applications that are over 100,000 volts.
We do not use mechanical advancers for any of our ignitions. They rarely work correctly and we remove them from your engine. Timing is rpm based with the option of input from a MAP sensor, VOES, or rotary/toggle switches.
Current consumption is very low compared to any other ignition. Since ours uses a microprocessor there is a small draw to operate it, but you probably are referring to the coil draw. We use 3 ohm coils as do our competitors but we control dwell much better, which greatly reduces the actual amps needed to fire our coils, especially at lower rpms such as starting and city riding. Dwell starts around 20-30 degrees and never goes beyond 100 degrees.
The CBX ignition comes pre-programmed with 4 individual curves, and they all have a rev limit. Each curve can be modified independent of the other ones.
I'm sorry you cannot view the curves very well. I could send a photograph version if you send me an email.
For some reason I've tried to set my status to receive emails on posts, but so far it has not worked. If I do not reply in a timely manner please email or call.
Paul Crowe
paul@c5ignitions.com
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Hi Paul
Ignition current consumption is always of concern to us; the original CBX alternator was never one of the huge pluses of this great bike.
Specially in and around low rpm (city riding), the original alternator output is simply marginal.
So can you elaborate more on the current consumption gains of your system versus the original plus the DYNA-S which many of us have already migrated to since some time now.
Specifically average current consumption gains of your system vs original and DYNA with OEM coils.
One more question: Is the rev limiter user settable and what's its range?
Thanks, Aris
Ignition current consumption is always of concern to us; the original CBX alternator was never one of the huge pluses of this great bike.
Specially in and around low rpm (city riding), the original alternator output is simply marginal.
So can you elaborate more on the current consumption gains of your system versus the original plus the DYNA-S which many of us have already migrated to since some time now.
Specifically average current consumption gains of your system vs original and DYNA with OEM coils.
One more question: Is the rev limiter user settable and what's its range?
Thanks, Aris
Aris Hadjiaslanis
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Hello Paul,
Thanks for the reply, I would not need to change curves if running a standard or big bore engine so the picture is not that important at this stage.
I like the kit very much in that it will replace coils, triggers, spark units and advance mechanism for state of the art as well as built in rev limiter. I assume that the spark will be similar to a Dyna but the accuracy and 3 spark technology will out perform the Dyna which appeals to me. Only information that would be useful is the power consumption compared to the Dyna and as Aris mentions can the rev limiter be adjusted?
I understand that a Dyna system needs a relay because of its current consumption, would this be the case with your system?
Regards
Goss
Thanks for the reply, I would not need to change curves if running a standard or big bore engine so the picture is not that important at this stage.
I like the kit very much in that it will replace coils, triggers, spark units and advance mechanism for state of the art as well as built in rev limiter. I assume that the spark will be similar to a Dyna but the accuracy and 3 spark technology will out perform the Dyna which appeals to me. Only information that would be useful is the power consumption compared to the Dyna and as Aris mentions can the rev limiter be adjusted?
I understand that a Dyna system needs a relay because of its current consumption, would this be the case with your system?
Regards
Goss
Onboard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqWSsdKtd64
Bike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofjFhEd3
Bike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofjFhEd3
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Paul,
For those of us with turbos, being able to play with an advance curve is of paramount importance.
You certainly have my interest.
Best,
Phil
For those of us with turbos, being able to play with an advance curve is of paramount importance.
You certainly have my interest.
Best,
Phil
When you are up to your ass in alligators it is sometimes difficult
to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp !!
to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp !!
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Goss wrote:Hello Paul,
Thanks for the reply, I would not need to change curves if running a standard or big bore engine so the picture is not that important at this stage.
I like the kit very much in that it will replace coils, triggers, spark units and advance mechanism for state of the art as well as built in rev limiter. I assume that the spark will be similar to a Dyna but the accuracy and 3 spark technology will out perform the Dyna which appeals to me. Only information that would be useful is the power consumption compared to the Dyna and as Aris mentions can the rev limiter be adjusted?
I understand that a Dyna system needs a relay because of its current consumption, would this be the case with your system?
Regards
Goss
You can put the rev limiter anywhere you want, and it can be different in all 4 curves (use one curve as a "break in" curve for new engines?)
It is difficult to do power consumption comparisons for real world situations but if you send me a Dyna ignition I'd be happy to give it a go.
First lets agree that a Dyna coil and our coil require the same amperage to function (12 volts divided by 3 ohms = 4 amps).
What could allow one design use less power than another?
DWELL
Most ignitions attempt to push dwell as long as possible to give strong upper rpm spark. This typically means dwell of 90-200 degrees depending on which manufacturer you ask. 90 is enough to run a low rpm low compression engine, but is not long enough for Japanese high rpm bikes. You want the most dwell you can so the coil is always full but at low rpm the coil overheats and failure occurs.
I do not know what a Dyna is programmed for, but I know dwell doesn't change much (if any) from idle to wide open.
We have variable dwell based on rpm, so at low rpm the coil is barely on, and at high rpm the coil is on 100 degrees.
All other things being equal your power draw will always be less with a full rpm variable dwell feature.
This is a discussion the average bike owner does not care about, nor is it really a concern (although coil failures are mostly due to excess dwell).
Was that too much info?
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
We build more turbo and supercharged CBX and Goldwing kits than we do standard models.FalldownPhil wrote:Paul,
For those of us with turbos, being able to play with an advance curve is of paramount importance.
You certainly have my interest.
Best,
Phil
Accurate timing is CRITICAL in those applications and we can easily build a curve that is aggressive until turbo boost builds, then quickly retard timing at the exact rpm you require. I can send you a curve or post on here as a picture if there is enough interest.
Should we start a new thread explaining curves and how they can be adjusted?
It is up to you guys.
-Paul
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Paul,
Thanks much for all your info/input. While I don't need that much for my personal use, it's good 'stuff'. I enjoy. Hopefully, it answers some of the guys questions, though. Appreciate.
Thanks much for all your info/input. While I don't need that much for my personal use, it's good 'stuff'. I enjoy. Hopefully, it answers some of the guys questions, though. Appreciate.
Larry Zimmer
cbxlarry@sbcglobal.net
cbxlarry@sbcglobal.net
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Re: New Ignition System for CBX
Thank You Paul,
I now have your number and shall be calling. There are a number of us with turbos that could use a good ignition system.
Very Best,
Phil
I now have your number and shall be calling. There are a number of us with turbos that could use a good ignition system.
Very Best,
Phil
When you are up to your ass in alligators it is sometimes difficult
to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp !!
to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp !!