First oil change after rebuilt
- Kool_Biker
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First oil change after rebuilt
My 79 Z engine was fully (nut and bolt) rebuilt by myself about a year ago.
Given the opportunity, and taking into consideration a previous crap life, I gave it a rebore as well.
About 3 weeks ago the engine was started for the first time. I used plain 30W oil and a Randakk conversion oil filter, and the engine was very carefully operated in my workshop for perhaps 30 minutes in total max, on and off, revved up to perhaps (briefly) 3.5 K RPM max, and was never allowed to overheat etc.
In fact some of you may have seen my uTube video
Today I decided to do it's first oil & filter change, give it a quality oil, so I could ride the bike as, following a very lengthy rebuilt, everything else is almost ready.
After the oil was drained and I removed the sump, here's what I found: The 'black' stuff in both the magnetic drain plug and in the sump is at least in part ferrous, as it is attracted by a magnet.
It has the consistency of extremely fine mud.
The 'blue' stuff is OK, tiny remnants of the joint sealer I used.
The oil pump filter was clean.
I would hugely welcome the collective wisdom of the forum.
Thanks in advance
Aris
My question to the panel is: Is this normal, should I be at all worried?
Given the opportunity, and taking into consideration a previous crap life, I gave it a rebore as well.
About 3 weeks ago the engine was started for the first time. I used plain 30W oil and a Randakk conversion oil filter, and the engine was very carefully operated in my workshop for perhaps 30 minutes in total max, on and off, revved up to perhaps (briefly) 3.5 K RPM max, and was never allowed to overheat etc.
In fact some of you may have seen my uTube video
Today I decided to do it's first oil & filter change, give it a quality oil, so I could ride the bike as, following a very lengthy rebuilt, everything else is almost ready.
After the oil was drained and I removed the sump, here's what I found: The 'black' stuff in both the magnetic drain plug and in the sump is at least in part ferrous, as it is attracted by a magnet.
It has the consistency of extremely fine mud.
The 'blue' stuff is OK, tiny remnants of the joint sealer I used.
The oil pump filter was clean.
I would hugely welcome the collective wisdom of the forum.
Thanks in advance
Aris
My question to the panel is: Is this normal, should I be at all worried?
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Aris Hadjiaslanis
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
- Don
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Since it was bored and honed, I suspect some 'ferrous material' collected on a magnetic drain plug would have to be considered normal - The rings are seating and some cylinder wall material will be worn away in the process . . . . it usually goes in the filter when there's no magnetic plug, so few people ever see any evidence of it
One thing Dave McMunn taught me is that no matter how meticulously clean you are during reassembly, you're going to find all sorts of particulate matter collected in the sump screen after then first couple oil changes - Dave is about as 'clean' a mechanic as I've ever observed and he got quite a bit of 'crud' out of the screen on my bike the first oil change after he rebuilt it and I got a little more after the second oil change. What did your sump screen look like at the first change?
Don
One thing Dave McMunn taught me is that no matter how meticulously clean you are during reassembly, you're going to find all sorts of particulate matter collected in the sump screen after then first couple oil changes - Dave is about as 'clean' a mechanic as I've ever observed and he got quite a bit of 'crud' out of the screen on my bike the first oil change after he rebuilt it and I got a little more after the second oil change. What did your sump screen look like at the first change?
Don
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
I would second Don's remarks. Also, as far as I understand, the engine is not "new" but rebuilt. Unless you took the cases completely apart and had those and all internals commercially washed, you will alwyas find some residue in the sump. And the combustion process produces carbon that mixes with some of the oil until the rings have completely seated (and still afterwards, to an extend) which will cause your sump look like this. Imagine you had a brand new engine from the factory and did your first oil change at 500-800 miles. You would most likely see the same thing.
- Kool_Biker
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Thanks guys, this is most encouraging.
What is also encouraging is that the engine feels and sounds sweet (except for the clutch racket which I will deal with separately).
The sump screen was also very clean, see pic. BTW, this was a nut and bolt restoration, and the original engine was reduced to single part numbers .
I remember spending incredible amounts of time with water under pressure and compressed air in turns, to clean the vapour blasted cases and myriad existing orifices to get rid of any residue. I could not stress this enough to anyone contemplating such extensive work. In fact, I could see glass residue coming out of the most unexpected places every time after I thought I had finished with cleaning !!! Hence the many hours. Any way the weather here in Greece is opening up and I look forward to a few real miles to further assess the situation. Assuming all's well, then I will attack the clutch basket and get a proper exhaust ...
Anyways, thanks so much everybody, what an incredible resource we are, it really makes a huge difference to our hobby.
Aris
What is also encouraging is that the engine feels and sounds sweet (except for the clutch racket which I will deal with separately).
The sump screen was also very clean, see pic. BTW, this was a nut and bolt restoration, and the original engine was reduced to single part numbers .
I remember spending incredible amounts of time with water under pressure and compressed air in turns, to clean the vapour blasted cases and myriad existing orifices to get rid of any residue. I could not stress this enough to anyone contemplating such extensive work. In fact, I could see glass residue coming out of the most unexpected places every time after I thought I had finished with cleaning !!! Hence the many hours. Any way the weather here in Greece is opening up and I look forward to a few real miles to further assess the situation. Assuming all's well, then I will attack the clutch basket and get a proper exhaust ...
Anyways, thanks so much everybody, what an incredible resource we are, it really makes a huge difference to our hobby.
Aris
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Aris Hadjiaslanis
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
love the bike mate well done
- Kool_Biker
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Thanks! Almost there at last ...
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Aris Hadjiaslanis
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Excellent Aris! Well done and it's been great getting to know you on line here throughout the process. I hope you enjoy many miles on the bike. BTW, do you need a set of NOS mirrors?
Dave
Dave
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Thank you Dave, and everyone else for this most wonderful resource!
There is no way I would reach this point, without oodles of help from you lot.
Cheers, Aris
P.S.1: Not planning to disappear, I am sure there will be tens of problems as I use my bike more and more to pester everyone with
P.S.2: Dave, if you look closely, you will see there is an LHS mirror attached, NOS and correct. I would love to find a RHS though ...
There is no way I would reach this point, without oodles of help from you lot.
Cheers, Aris
P.S.1: Not planning to disappear, I am sure there will be tens of problems as I use my bike more and more to pester everyone with
P.S.2: Dave, if you look closely, you will see there is an LHS mirror attached, NOS and correct. I would love to find a RHS though ...
Aris Hadjiaslanis
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Aris:
The mirrors are not 'left or right' , they are the same part number - you just rotate the head for left or right. They are still available over here new from Honda - I suspect somewhere on the continent over there also.
The mirrors are not 'left or right' , they are the same part number - you just rotate the head for left or right. They are still available over here new from Honda - I suspect somewhere on the continent over there also.
- NobleHops
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Fantastic, you did an amazing job on the bike Aris. A great project done.Kool_Biker wrote:Thanks! Almost there at last ...
N.
Nils Menten
Tucson, Arizona, USA '80 CBX, sort-of restored :-)
Tucson, Arizona, USA '80 CBX, sort-of restored :-)
- Kool_Biker
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
OOOPS!daves79x wrote:Aris:
The mirrors are not 'left or right' , they are the same part number - you just rotate the head for left or right. They are still available over here new from Honda - I suspect somewhere on the continent over there also.
Aris Hadjiaslanis
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
- Kool_Biker
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
NilsMenten wrote:Fantastic, you did an amazing job on the bike Aris. A great project done.Kool_Biker wrote:Thanks! Almost there at last ...
N.
Aris Hadjiaslanis
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
ICOA # 6309
Berkshire, Windsor
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
Also, the CBX Alternator metal clutch plates, brushes, and slip rings produce some 'ferrous material' that can get circulated in the oil.Don wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:48 pmSince it was bored and honed, I suspect some 'ferrous material' collected on a magnetic drain plug would have to be considered normal - The rings are seating and some cylinder wall material will be worn away in the process . . . . it usually goes in the filter when there's no magnetic plug, so few people ever see any evidence of it
One thing Dave McMunn taught me is that no matter how meticulously clean you are during reassembly, you're going to find all sorts of particulate matter collected in the sump screen after then first couple oil changes - Dave is about as 'clean' a mechanic as I've ever observed and he got quite a bit of 'crud' out of the screen on my bike the first oil change after he rebuilt it and I got a little more after the second oil change. What did your sump screen look like at the first change?
Don
per Mike Nixon
-Scott
Mike Nixon:
"The stock alternator's shortcomings are actually few and minor. First, its too-short brush life. This is obviously due to the brushes being positioned at the outer edge of a large diameter rotor, resulting in a fairly high surface speed, certainly higher than the brushes found in the Kawasaki alternator that are rubbing against a similar but much smaller diameter copper ring. Let me add here that I do not like Rick's aftermarket brushes for the CBX. They appear to be modified electric tool brushes. Whatever they are they are considerably harder in material, which results in unnecessarily rapid wear of the factory rotor's slip rings. Avoid them. The factory brushes are still obtainable, though like all OEM parts they are expensive.
The stock alternator also eventually fails its bearings, both the inboard and the outboard ones. As with the brushes, I don't consider this a defect either. It is to be expected, but some folks experience it prematurely in my view. My CBX never needed them in more than 50,000 miles. In any case, bearings are easily replaced.
Another eventuality is the leaking of the stock alternator square ring that seals it to the engine. Such is the case with almost every CBX that comes into my shop, though I believe it is due to rough handling more than anything. It's a very delicate seal. Again, this is a maintenance item, and note that the same square ring is required when fitting the Kawasaki conversion.
Naturally, we can't ignore the drive discs, or alternator clutch as Honda calls it, the most famous of the CBX alternator's glitches. I may be the one who first pointed out the manufacturing defect in the engine-side disc that promotes slipping and rapid wear (I once worked for Honda corporate). In any event, reconditioning of the discs is necessary on every CBX, sometimes even replacing them, though they are long discontinued from Honda and even good used ones demand a princely sum. The bigger problem is so many folks labor under the misconception that the discs are supposed to slip. They are not. The design function is a once-in-a-blue-moon give, and just a quarter-turn at that, under extreme conditions, not repeated rotational slipping. I say shim the assembly until the discs give only in that manner. The spring preload is correct when the alternator attaching bolts will barely start on one thread with a good push on the unit. Better yet, shim even more, until the discs won't give at all, and it won't matter what condition they are in. This is functionally no different from the Kawasaki alternator which eliminates the clutch."
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Re: First oil change after rebuilt
I’m not sure why it is even made with such a system to have only a small amount of slippage at all why would it not be directly driven.
Is there any other charging system on and ICE that uses this setup?
Not to wander from the thread absolutely a fantastic restoration
Is there any other charging system on and ICE that uses this setup?
Not to wander from the thread absolutely a fantastic restoration