Countershaft sprocket seal


Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby axeman » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:59 pm

Ok gentleman, I know somewhere ther are instructions for doing the oil seal at the front sproket without doing the engine teardown. Any help.?
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Re: Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby BillB » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:25 pm

axeman wrote:Ok gentleman, I know somewhere there are instructions for doing the oil seal at the front sprocket without doing the engine teardown. Any help.?
82 cbx.
I wrote that tip originally in one issue of the 94 CBXpress.

Buy the new seal and look at the outer lip it has - that rigid lip holds the seal in position in a groove in the case halves during assembly. It really isn't needed IMHO, but it prevents you from replacing the seal w/o removing and splitting the motor open.

Originally I tried to replace the seal not realizing it had this lip (I hadn't bough the new one yet). And with some destructive effort I managed to get it out. Part way through this I realized the problem.

What I did worked, and if you are careful not to put anything against the countershaft and score it, you can replace the seal with the motor remaining completely unmolested. Here is a recap of what I did.

Expose the seal by removing the gear shift, cover, front sprocket. NOTE THE SEAL'S POSITION RELATIVE TO THE CASE SURFACE so you can install the new seal at the correct depth.

Take a small chisel and crease the seal with circumferential blows halfway between the center and the outer edge - what you are trying to do is scrunch it so the outer edge pulls away from the case. Sort of making the seal diameter smaller so the outer lip will pull at least partially out of the groove in the case. It will not fully come out of the groove this way but should distort enough that it can be pulled out. You can use a screw driver in the gap this creates between the case and the seal, prying it to further pull the seal outer edge away from the case. You can dig around the outside edge of the seal quite a bit as there is a good amount of sealing surface and that is not the critical seal. Small dings on the edge of the case are not consequential - the lip against the countershaft is the important side.

I drilled 4 tiny holes around the seal. You can put some grease on the drill bit to capture the metal shavings, but you will clean this area later after the seal is out.

I screwed some long drywall screws into these holes just enough to grip well but not hit anything inside - say, about the depth of the new seal. I placed 1x2 board across frame members in this area to use as a pry surface, and with a common claw hammer I gripped the screw heads and pried the seal out working from one screw to the next until I got it to move. As it comes out, distort it further with the screwdriver or whatever.

Once the seal is out, clean the area of any debris. A little WD-40, maybe a shop vac, wipe with clean rags. I found almost no debris and it was an easy clean up.

Now, the problem is the new seal with that rigid metal lip. You will need a grinding wheel. I rotated the seal lip against my bench grinder, taking it down evenly until it was gone. The seal still did not want to start in. So, I ground a 45 degree bevel on the leading edge of the seal until I could get it to start evenly. I coated the outer edge with Gasgacinch, mostly as a lubricant. Any liquid gasket sealer like Hylomar should work, but Gasgacinch really did the job.

Drive in the modified seal. Any suitable object to use as a seal driver (large socket with extension, piece of PVC pipe) and my 3 lb sledge or any hammer should work. Use rather gentle blows with frequent checks to make sure the seal is going in evenly. It will tend to cock to one side until it is well into position, so getting it started evenly requires careful work. Check often for straightness as it progresses in. Drive it in until the depth matches the original seal. That seal is not going anywhere despite no outer lip. Put the other parts back on. You're done.

My countershaft seal is still good 14 years later.

I would believe my little timesaving tip was way too unconventional to be chosen for the Tech Tip Chronicles, and without the 94 CBXpress, this post will have to suffice to preserve it.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Why Honda didn't just put a lip in the case to seat the seal against, like common crankshaft main seals and oil seals for other shafts, is not clear to me. The seal is so tight in the case it could have been done that way without fear of it popping out and rubbing against the sprocket.
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Postby broook » Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:44 am

Great tip. Thanks Bill 8)
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Postby Mike Barone #123 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:10 am

(Snip MB) I would believe my little timesaving tip was way too unconventional to be chosen for the Tech Tip Chronicles, and without the 94 CBXpress, this post will have to suffice to preserve it.

Hope this helps. Good luck. (Snip MB)
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Hi Bill

I think this tip is exactly what should be in the Xpress and shared with all the members here on line as well. With your permission, I would like to have it in the upcoming issue.

If someone can supply a couple of close up photos from an engine they have out of the X.....this would make it .......better than perfect.........in my view.

Thx


Mike
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Postby alimey4u2 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:40 am

May I just say there have been some excellent support topics recently, well done all... 8)
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Postby EMS » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:59 am

alimey4u2 wrote:May I just say there have been some excellent support topics recently, well done all... 8)


You took the words right out of my mouth.... ( I will not continue that chorus line :shock: :shock: )
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Postby BillB » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:15 pm

Mike Barone #123 wrote:Hi Bill

I think this tip is exactly what should be in the Xpress and shared with all the members here on line as well. With your permission, I would like to have it in the upcoming issue.

If someone can supply a couple of close up photos from an engine they have out of the X.....this would make it .......better than perfect.........in my view.

Thx


Mike

Hi Mike:

It was already printed in the CBXpress. I just found it again. Summer/Fall 1994 (Vol. 13, Number 3-4) issue Tech Tips, page 38. I scanned it and did OCR. Here is the original text. My recollection above is remarkably similar to what I wrote 14 years ago. Here is the original text again.

==============

COUNTERSHAFT OIL SEAL LEAK

My 82 CBX developed a countershaft oil seal leak causing an oil puddle under the drive sprocket. Replacement of the seal requires engine removal and splitting of the crankcase because the seal has an outer lip that fits in a groove in the crankcase halves. The lip is unnecessary to retain the seal and just insures proper placement.

I couldn't fathom doing all this work unless there were a greater reason to take apart the engine. I discovered you can replace the seal without crankcase disassembly and probably in less than two hours. To do this requires some unorthodox procedures that you will never find in a shop manual, but which saves days of labor.

Removing the old seal is by far the toughest part. The seal is made of rubber covering a metal core. The lip is about a 16th of an inch of rubber-coated metal. The outer rim of the seal needs to be pulled away from the crankcase for the lip to clear the crankcase. After exposing the seal, I did this by using a chisel to crease the metal core with blows in a circle between the outer edge and the center.

To get the lip to clear I had to really distort the seal and pry the outer edge away from the crankcase. Doing so may nick the crankcase a little, but this did not reduce the effectiveness of the seal. Just be careful not to score the countershaft! The surface of the rotating countershaft must be absolutely smooth or oil will leak by the seal. I stupidly pried against the countershaft causing some minor scores that I had to take out with my Dremel - that was an unnecessary pain.

Once the seal is distorted, removal may still require some effort, since you may not get all of the lip free. You may be able to get some kind of hook behind the seal and yank it out. I drilled three small holes in the seal and screwed in some 2 inch drywall screws. I positioned a small board across the outer case to use as a prying surface and used a nail puller to lever out the seal. Clean out the seal pocket of any debris.

Inserting the new seal is relatively easy. I used a bench grinder to remove the outer lip which is on the leading edge of the seal. Make certain it is all removed and that the outer edge is smooth and even.
Grinding the edge with an undercut bevel will make insertion easier.

Coat the outer edge with gasket sealer, such as Gasgacinch. Use a short section of pipe or a very large socket that clears the countershaft to drive in the seal. With each blow check to see that the seal is going in evenly. If it does not go in at all, remove more of the leading metal edge and bevel it more. The seal is about 1/4th inch thick, so do not worry about taking off too much of the leading edge since there is plenty of sealer surface.

The seal should be driven until the outer surface is only just below the level of the outer crankcase. Since there is no lip it is possible to drive the seal in too far.

My first try leaked because of the nicks I put in the countershaft. I popped out the new seal without having to crunch it. Since the fit is real tight, I had to use my screw pulling technique to get it out. Since I removed the nicks with an emery wheel and put in another seal, I have had no more leaks. So, my virgin 25,000 mile CBX engine can stay together until it really needs a rebuild. That should be a long time.

William D. Ball
Danville, CA

=========

The bike now has a little over 50K miles, the seal has held fine and the engine case is still virgin, although primary chain clatter has tempted me to open it up, but that's not a good enough reason.
Bill

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Postby BillB » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:27 pm

Mike:

Even though this has appeared in the CBXpress before, it brings up an idea of perhaps a section of "CBXpress Classics" in the CBXpress: Reprints of items of special interest from very old issues, maybe with some updated notes on the item.

Regardless, if you would like to include this tip in an upcoming issue, feel free. I wish I had taken photos to dcoument it. Too bad the seal has held up so well that I haven't had a chance to do it again.
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Postby Mike Barone #123 » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:34 pm

BillB wrote:Mike:

Even though this has appeared in the CBXpress before, it brings up an idea of perhaps a section of "CBXpress Classics" in the CBXpress: Reprints of items of special interest from very old issues, maybe with some updated notes on the item.

Regardless, if you would like to include this tip in an upcoming issue, feel free. I wish I had taken photos to dcoument it. Too bad the seal has held up so well that I haven't had a chance to do it again.


Hi Bill

Everyone on the Xpress Editorial Committee voted to include it again and I agree. We get too few tech posts like this and on the topic of repeats of ole topics already posted or in the Xpress..... the most important thing to keep in mind..... is most CBXers now ...did not own them in 1994 or get the Xpress then

Can you e me a pix of yourself, your CBX and/or both to include. Great post topic and thx. team222cbx@comcast.net

You got any more hiding ole Xpresses articles you can post??? :clap: :clap:

Best


Mike
My CBX lives near Harrisburg, Pa USA
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Re: Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby BillB » Wed May 17, 2017 3:23 am

A quick update, now some 23 years after I first wrote up this timesaving tip and another 9 years after this thread, my 82 still purrs down the road, seal still intact.
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Re: Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby Jeff Bennetts » Wed May 17, 2017 9:46 am

BillB wrote:A quick update, now some 23 years after I first wrote up this timesaving tip and another 9 years after this thread, my 82 still purrs down the road, seal still intact.



See you in another 9 years! 8)
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Re: Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby Larry Zimmer » Wed May 17, 2017 10:59 am

On behalf of the entire brotherhood, thanks for 'bumping' this old post, Bill. Great 'shade tree' work. Stuff like this that makes my life interesting and fun. And, I expect, for many others. Have a great Summer.
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Re: Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby BillB » Wed May 17, 2017 2:59 pm

Jeff Bennetts wrote:
BillB wrote:A quick update, now some 23 years after I first wrote up this timesaving tip and another 9 years after this thread, my 82 still purrs down the road, seal still intact.



See you in another 9 years! 8)

Probably sooner than that. I finally renewed my membership and the old bikes I have are getting more use lately.
Bill

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Re: Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby EMS » Wed May 17, 2017 8:29 pm

BillB wrote:
Jeff Bennetts wrote:
....See you in another 9 years! .... 8)


....I finally renewed my membership.....


Considering that this is the ICOA club forum, this was an excellent response to an absolute jackass comment!
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Re: Countershaft sprocket seal

Postby Jeff Bennetts » Thu May 18, 2017 9:39 am

EMS wrote:
BillB wrote:
Jeff Bennetts wrote:
....See you in another 9 years! .... 8)


....I finally renewed my membership.....


Considering that this is the ICOA club forum, this was an excellent response to an absolute jackass comment!


Actually I was looking forward to another counter shaft seal update in another 9 yrs, not quite sure what you're referring to EMS?
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