1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Hey, what projects are you planning or preparing for? CBX, other motos, workshop, WHATEVAH!
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mlynch001
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1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by mlynch001 »

I have had many people ask for a summary of my EFI project that has appeared on FB over the past year. I thought I would post a bunch of pictures here and let the questions/ comments begin and flow from there.

CBX EFI, Search For a Better Mousetrap.

Many people may have heard about my CBX -EFI Project. I am sure many more have not. I will start by giving some background on myself. I am a lifelong gear head and have been riding some sort of motorbike or cycle since I was about 6 years old. My father was one of the best shade tree mechanics and taught me a lot. I went to high school in Elyria, Ohio and took Auto Tech, since I had zero interest in anything else. After High school, I went to college to study mechanical engineering, quickly decided that this was not for me, since there were not any computers at the time and my head was not cut out for calculus. The one passion that college did ignite was the machine trades and drafting, both of which I have used from that time forward. After leaving college, I went to work at a NAPA store and soon moved into the Machine Shop to learn that trade. Spent several years as an automotive machinist and really loved that job. Got a chance to go to work for a large and successful HONDA motorcycle dealership in 1983 where I fueled my passion for motorcycles. Worked as a tech, service manager, sales person, general manager and owner. This was a time of great change in the business and finally in 2003 I had enough and left the HONDA dealerships, burned out on the rat race.
I saw my first CBX in 1978, it was love at first sight. At the time, I had little money, so the Big 6 remained a dream. Finally, in 1999 I had the security and financial ability to by my 1982 CBX, unfortunately, little time to ride or work on the bike. After I left the dealership, I dabbled with EFI conversions on a couple of my collector cars. These cars were the catalyst that drove me to the decision that I MUST have an EFI CBX. For several years, I rode the bike as it was and enjoyed it immensely. However, in the back of my mind, that EFI system just kept bugging me. My cars ran so much better with EFI that I simply KNEW that if I could somehow install EFI on the CBX, that it would provide a quantum leap in drivability, if nothing else.
The Carburetors and Ignition systems of these bikes are most likely the Achilles heel of the bike. I wanted to fix those weaknesses, but I also wanted to maintain the look and feel of the original bike as well as make the whole process reversible if desired. Finally, in 2016, I started to plan in earnest as to how I would accomplish this goal. Since I wanted to maintain the functionality and serviceability of the original bike, as much as possible, I made the choice to use a set of stock CBX carburetors as a basis for the throttle bodies. This allowed me to use the stock cables, airbox and all the many other associated bits and pieces. The ECM choice was easy for me, since I had experience with the MEGASQUIRT EFI system and they offered a MICROSQUIRT ECM that was compact enough to fit into the limited space available and powerful enough to allow the system to meet the performance envelope of the proposed system.
Once the ECM is chosen, the fun begins. There are a lot of components that are required by the system to provide the various signals required for engine management. This ECM will control both fuel and ignition from one set of sensors. A choice is made as to what type of control scheme is to be used and then to select the various hardware items that will be required. While most items are “off the shelf” components, there are some key items that are custom made for the project. Besides the obvious throttle body conversion, there was the crank trigger wheel and pickup, the high-pressure fuel pump and the fuel return system. Each of these presented a unique challenge. It would be impossible to move forward with the project unless each of these could be overcome. In addition, these had to be overcome within the constraints of time, money and tools available; all the while remembering the overriding constraint of making no unnecessary, irreversible changes or modifications to the bike itself.
One thing that must be remembered was that This was all done without the aid of CNC machines, and with a minimum of other basic machine tools. I was able to make extensive use of CAD software to help design some of the critical parts.
The first of many machining challenges for this conversion is to get the injectors located so as to inject the fuel below the throttle plates. There are only a few places and a very narrow window of material to machine this injector port in the original carburetor bodies. Since injectors come in a limited number of “standard” dimensions, the size of the injector port dimensions are a known value. Injector flow sizing is another limiting factor, I had to find an injector of the proper dimensions as well as the correct flow rate to supply the engines fuel requirements. Fortunately, there are several small 4-cylinder automotive engines that use an injector of the proper dimensions and flow rate that could be used. To Be continued. Please Feel free to ask questions.

Here is a DROPBOX Link to about 300 photos of some of the work done. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gj91pfie80pu ... iK1Ya?dl=0

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by daves79x »

Excellent Michael! Thanks so much for posting that.

Dave

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by desertrefugee »

Incredible project. Unimaginable number of hours spent. I was cruising through your 300 images, happily taking the journey - until I came onto the BBQ section. What a shocker and a heartbreaker. Sincere kudos to you for carrrying on!
'97 Valkyrie, '86 VMax, ‘85 VMax, ‘83 ZN1300-6, ‘82 CX500 Turbo, ‘79 CBX, ‘78 GL1000, '78 750F Project

"The older I get, the more I understand. Don't let the fear of what could happen make nothing happen." - Anonymous

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by mlynch001 »

Continued from the top:

Preparing the carburetors consists first of striping them down to their most basic parts to begin machining operations, boring out the venturi, milling and filling the bowl base and jet area, preparing a base plate and finally cutting the bores for the injectors. A Jig was built to hold the throttle body at the desired angle for the injector port to be bored.
Since the CV function is no longer necessary, the CV Piston hole and caps were plugged and the caps tuned into simple covers. This change will reduce “pumping loss” in the venturi of the throttles by about 80%, since there is no longer any need for the engine to work to draw the fuel in and raise the CV Pistons. This alone will provide about a 10% net power gain.
All the cross piping for the fuel, accelerator pump, bowl vents and CV Pressure are then filled with Epoxy.
Keep in mind that there are numerous test assemblies that are done during each step, so this was time consuming, to say the least.
After all this was accomplished, the throttles were assembled once again and the fuel rails began to take shape. Fuel passes from the filter on the right side, across to the regulator/return on the left.
Fuel is delivered at 45PSI and referenced to the intake manifold pressure. After the fuel rails were fully machined, the component parts were all stripped down, cleaned and re assembled in their final form. A throttle position sensor is fitted to the original throttle bracket to provide position information to the ECM.
A fuel pressure regulator is mounted to allow fuel pressure to be maintained at a constant relative pressure to the intake manifold pressure.
Stock throttle cables and all sync mechanisms are retained. Basically, these throttle bodies now fill the space between the stock intake insulators and the air filer pipes. Stock airbox, crankcase vent and air filter are retained. Choke lever is used as a “fast idle” lever.
Once final assembly and sealing of the throttle bodies is complete, the entire assemble is then pressure tested, first with air pressure at 150 PSI and finally with fuel pressure at 50 PSI. Fuel leaks are simply not an option, no matter how minor they might seem. (see the pictures as to what a little fuel and some bad judgement can do) There are a lot of places for fuel leaks and each one must be verified as sealed with ZERO leakage.
Fuel Pressure is supplied from a surge tank that feeds from the main tank and passes through a filter before reaching the injectors, then finally passes out the regulator and returns to the tank. Only a small portion of the fuel is used, most recirculates in the system, except at high power settings. This surge tank is custom built for this application and is fitted in the space formerly occupied by the tool box.
The Ignition system on the CBX is marginal, at best, even the so called “Fixes” offer a less than perfect solution. I scrapped the entire system, except for the spark plugs and the advancer drive shaft. The Megasquirt EFI system provides the perfect opportunity to install a truly modern, fully adjustable ignition system on the CBX. I designed and built a compact 36-1 toothed wheel system using a Hall Effect Sensor to replace the ignition pulse generators and mechanical advance unit on the right side. The ECM is fully electronically adjustable and not controlled by any mechanical components. Spark energy is supplied by 6 GM-LS2-D585 ignition coils, which are inexpensive, compact and capable of tremendous spark energy and spark duration. These six coils are then assembled into a custom built “Coil pack” which takes the place of the stock coils in the (almost) stock location. Plug wires are custom built MSD units.
The MICROSQUIRT ECM is mounted in the tail piece, with wire harnesses running forward to the numerous components and sensors which have been added to the system. Power for the additional electrical loads comes from a fuse box mounted on the battery hold down on the left side. Relays are mounted under the seat in the former location for the ignition control boxes. There is a LOT of extra wiring in these EFI systems. The harness is no longer simple. Programming is accomplished with a Laptop, software and a USB cable. Tuning software is provided as part of the ECM package and is very detailed. The Megasquirt system IS NOT “plug and play” for this application, and there are hundreds of parameters to select and adjust for the entire system to work. Anyone using this system needs to have some experience with the hardware and the software before attempting a “Scratch” build, such as this one. ONE “wrong” setting can stop the entire thing from running and cause you to pull your hair out (Ask me how I know!!).
Last edited by mlynch001 on Wed May 09, 2018 11:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by mlynch001 »

desertrefugee wrote:Incredible project. Unimaginable number of hours spent. I was cruising through your 300 images, happily taking the journey - until I came onto the BBQ section. What a shocker and a heartbreaker. Sincere kudos to you for carrrying on!
Thank you! That incident was a stupid mistake and a lapse of judgment, which, only by the Grace of God did not cost me my life and everything that I own. The CBX community and friends from around the world have chipped in with funds and parts to get me back on track. It took me about a month to recover from the burns on my hands. It was a very scary situation, but could have been MUCH MUCH worse. I have added a little more to the story , above.

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

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daves79x wrote:Excellent Michael! Thanks so much for posting that.

Dave
You are welcome. Does posting the Pictures like this work for you? This way I do not need to resize them, just add them to the dropbox file as I get them. An the ICOA does not have to host the pictures.

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by Bob Buehler »

You have put in an incredible amount of work on this project. Using the stock carbs for throttle bodies looks like some impressive work. I have heard of others wanting to do something similar on other bikes and it sounded like a good idea until I see how much work you put into making the CBX carbs work. I did not get the details on the fire but I can see how it can happen. I had a small fire on my project bike that could have gotten out of had and it was in a big wooden barn. I think I had a fire extinguisher around but who knows if it was charged. Your experience should teach us all a lesson to keep a good size extinguisher in the garage.

I have an EFI system on my bike that uses an older Wolf D3 computer that is made in Australia. It was the a good system in 2001 or 2 when it was built but a local tuner showed me just how much he could do with a new system. He also pointed that the new O2 sensors work so well that you can really tune the system based on its own readings. Are you running an O2 sensor. My present computer does little more than map injection duration verses Throttle position. You can also adjust ignition timing obviously but don't think you can do much else to modify it based on manifold pressure. It looks like you have a mass air sensor in the air box. I have been working with my system for a couple of years now just to see what I can get it to do. The bike runs ok but not nearly as good as I know it can run. I used to have the hardest time getting it to start. It was so bad that I took it off one motor assuming the motor was the problem. It was not the motor. I believe I can only decrease my injection pulse down to about .04 ms if that sounds correct. At that short of a cycle they are not consistent and even then it is still rich. I have managed to get it to start consistently and to my complete surprise it fired up on the first try after having sat all winter. I cannot explain that one at all other than maybe my newly rebuilt motor is seating its rings and cold compression is improving. That is purely speculation.

So this summer I am finally going back to the tuner that offered to put a new computer in. I forget what make of computer he suggested but he uses them in a lot of his car projects and is very familiar with what they can do. He showed me the limitations of my older computer and it is clear that I need to upgrade.

I just bought a 2016 GSXS 1000 that has EFI issues from the factory. The videos from Woolich Racing about re tuning the EFI is fascinating. You can either take the bike to shop and have them take care of the re mapping or you can buy some harnesses and programs from them and do it yourself. I am tempted to dig into it myself but maybe one EFI system at a time would be best. I also believe the shop that offered to put the new computer on the CBX used the dyno at the shop that I was planning on taking the GSXS to. I feel very lucky to have found a local shop that can help and appears to know the aftermarket EFI systems very well. You are correct when you say trying to learn as you go is not that easy. Rebuilding a set of carbs was not easy but it was not that bad either. Learning how to set up an EFI system from scratch is a whole other ball game if you are not familiar with the various sensor inputs. For example, I have no idea how to read the signal coming off my crank position sensor. All I know is the computer can read it. The same goes for the throttle position sensor. I am looking forward to learning more with this project bike. Hopefully I won't burn down the house in the process.

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

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Wow, this is wonderful. I can't wait to go through it photo by photo. I warn you now that I do intend to bother you with questions about this starting sometime in the next year or two when I convert my own bike.

Like you, my goal is to retain the stock look and retain day-to-day usability. For me that means keeping the stock carbs for use as throttle bodies, and the stock airbox. I was thinking that mounting shower-style injectors in the airbox upstream of the carbs would be the most logical way to do that, although that obviously has implications for packaging and airflow. Even so, I was assuming that it would be easier to manage than machining the carb bodies to accept injectors.

I'm wondering, did you consider the shower-style injectors, or was it immediately obvious that the approach you took was the way to go? On reflection, do you think there were would be any benefits to shower-style injectors in the airbox vs. the machined carb bodies, or was it kind of a dumb idea on my part?

EDIT: I'm also wondering about the choice of crank angle sensor vs. cam angle sensor. The wheel you built and its cover & the mount for the sensor look fantastic, but does that mean that the injectors have to run in batch mode? Do you think it would be possible to modify the tach drive on the CBX exhaust cam to get a cam angle sensor and then run the injectors in sequential mode? That worm gear setup for the tach drive doesn't seem easily modified, but none of the rest of what you did looks easy to me, either. I wonder if you think the alternate approach might be worth it.
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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

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[quote="Syscrush"]Wow, this is wonderful. I can't wait to go through it photo by photo. I warn you now that I do intend to bother you with questions about this starting sometime in the next year or two when I convert my own bike. Please Feel free to ask anything, I will help as am able.

Like you, my goal is to retain the stock look and retain day-to-day usability. For me that means keeping the stock carbs for use as throttle bodies, and the stock airbox. I was thinking that mounting shower-style injectors in the airbox upstream of the carbs would be the most logical way to do that, although that obviously has implications for packaging and airflow. Even so, I was assuming that it would be easier to manage than machining the carb bodies to accept injectors.

I'm wondering, did you consider the shower-style injectors, or was it immediately obvious that the approach you took was the way to go? On reflection, do you think there were would be any benefits to shower-style injectors in the airbox vs. the machined carb bodies, or was it kind of a dumb idea on my part? I have zero experience with shower type injectors, and most of the OEM injection systems use an injector below the throttle plate. I would be concerned with the space required and the overall difficulty of packing all that gear inside the stock air box.

EDIT: I'm also wondering about the choice of crank angle sensor vs. cam angle sensor. The wheel you built and its cover & the mount for the sensor look fantastic, but does that mean that the injectors have to run in batch mode? Do you think it would be possible to modify the tach drive on the CBX exhaust cam to get a cam angle sensor and then run the injectors in sequential mode? That worm gear setup for the tach drive doesn't seem easily modified, but none of the rest of what you did looks easy to me, either. I wonder if you think the alternate approach might be worth it. My ECM does not support Sequential operation, so that was what drove this decision. I have not considered the tach drive, however, I believe that the tach drive does not operate at the correct speed to use it as a cam sensor. I am CERTAINLY not suggesting that using the cam tach drive is not possible, only that I did not do the research necessary to answer that question. IF you could figure out a simple way to mount a cam wheel only, then, along with the proper ECM, you could conceivably build full sequential injection. Full sequential is really not of any benefit except at idle and low RPM and is mainly used by the OEM's to meet strict emissions standards. The batch fire method simplifies the system and still delivers great performance. Since the OEM Ignition and advance unit was not being used and really not very desirable, this was the obvious place to mount the trigger wheel and sensor. The setup that I selected was really not that difficult to build, mostly straight Lathe work and small amount of milling involved.

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

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Bob Buehler wrote:You have put in an incredible amount of work on this project. Using the stock carbs for throttle bodies looks like some impressive work. I have heard of others wanting to do something similar on other bikes and it sounded like a good idea until I see how much work you put into making the CBX carbs work. I did not get the details on the fire but I can see how it can happen. I had a small fire on my project bike that could have gotten out of had and it was in a big wooden barn. I think I had a fire extinguisher around but who knows if it was charged. Your experience should teach us all a lesson to keep a good size extinguisher in the garage.my fire extinguisher was the only thing that save the whole place from utter destruction. I have two more LARGE extinguishers on hand at all times.

I have an EFI system on my bike that uses an older Wolf D3 computer that is made in Australia. It was the a good system in 2001 or 2 when it was built but a local tuner showed me just how much he could do with a new system. He also pointed that the new O2 sensors work so well that you can really tune the system based on its own readings. Are you running an O2 sensor. My present computer does little more than map injection duration verses Throttle position. You can also adjust ignition timing obviously but don't think you can do much else to modify it based on manifold pressure. It looks like you have a mass air sensor in the air box. I have been working with my system for a couple of years now just to see what I can get it to do. The bike runs ok but not nearly as good as I know it can run. I used to have the hardest time getting it to start. It was so bad that I took it off one motor assuming the motor was the problem. It was not the motor. I believe I can only decrease my injection pulse down to about .04 ms if that sounds correct. At that short of a cycle they are not consistent and even then it is still rich. I have managed to get it to start consistently and to my complete surprise it fired up on the first try after having sat all winter. I cannot explain that one at all other than maybe my newly rebuilt motor is seating its rings and cold compression is improving. That is purely speculation. My system uses a WBO2 sensor, Great tuning aid. I am using what is call "ITB" mode, which is a mix of Speed Density and Alpha-N mapping. I do not see .04ms as a viable PW, injector dead time is usually more than that, depending on the type of injectors. Dead time is usually .08-.12ms, so I would say that the injectors are too large. When being run near to or at their "Dead Time", injectors become totally unreliable and a rich idle is usually a symptom. What size injectors are you using? Mine uses 155cc injectors and Idles with a PW of 2.5ms at about 14.3-1 AFR.

So this summer I am finally going back to the tuner that offered to put a new computer in. I forget what make of computer he suggested but he uses them in a lot of his car projects and is very familiar with what they can do. He showed me the limitations of my older computer and it is clear that I need to upgrade. I am using MICROSQUIRT by DIY Autotune, I have previous experience with these and recommend them because of their wide range of adaptability to various engine configurations. These are also a relatively low cost and reliable option. There are many others that will likely do the job out there.

I just bought a 2016 GSXS 1000 that has EFI issues from the factory. The videos from Woolich Racing about re tuning the EFI is fascinating. You can either take the bike to shop and have them take care of the re mapping or you can buy some harnesses and programs from them and do it yourself. I am tempted to dig into it myself but maybe one EFI system at a time would be best. I also believe the shop that offered to put the new computer on the CBX used the dyno at the shop that I was planning on taking the GSXS to. I feel very lucky to have found a local shop that can help and appears to know the aftermarket EFI systems very well. You are correct when you say trying to learn as you go is not that easy. Rebuilding a set of carbs was not easy but it was not that bad either. Learning how to set up an EFI system from scratch is a whole other ball game if you are not familiar with the various sensor inputs. For example, I have no idea how to read the signal coming off my crank position sensor. All I know is the computer can read it. The same goes for the throttle position sensor. I am looking forward to learning more with this project bike. Hopefully I won't burn down the house in the process. Having a local shop that knows aftermarket EFI and is willing to help is a huge plus. I do not have that option. It really is not as difficult as you might imagine. I have a lot of OEM experience with EFI and once you grasp the general principals, everything falls into place. You should be able to read your crank signal with a good old analog oscilloscope, it is a simple digital pulse signal, in most cases. Back probe the correct wire from the crank signal connector and you should be able to see a square wave pattern on the scope screen.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO PM with QUESTIONS.

Sincerely,

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by Rick Pope »

While this is way over my head, it's still interesting. Keep it coming. :-)
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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by daves79x »

What Rick said!

Dave

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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

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mlynch001 wrote:Please Feel free to ask anything, I will help as am able.
That means a lot to me, thanks.
I have zero experience with shower type injectors, and most of the OEM injection systems use an injector below the throttle plate. I would be concerned with the space required and the overall difficulty of packing all that gear inside the stock air box.
Thanks. Something else that occurred to me is that the distance from the airbox to the throttle is different for the inboard and outboard cylinders, which would probably pose a problem for shower type.
My ECM does not support Sequential operation, so that was what drove this decision. I have not considered the tach drive, however, I believe that the tach drive does not operate at the correct speed to use it as a cam sensor. I am CERTAINLY not suggesting that using the cam tach drive is not possible, only that I did not do the research necessary to answer that question. IF you could figure out a simple way to mount a cam wheel only, then, along with the proper ECM, you could conceivably build full sequential injection. Full sequential is really not of any benefit except at idle and low RPM and is mainly used by the OEM's to meet strict emissions standards. The batch fire method simplifies the system and still delivers great performance. Since the OEM Ignition and advance unit was not being used and really not very desirable, this was the obvious place to mount the trigger wheel and sensor. The setup that I selected was really not that difficult to build, mostly straight Lathe work and small amount of milling involved.
Your trigger wheel is a work of beauty. What I was thinking of when I asked about using the tach drive is actually machining the camshaft at the tach drive gear to make it into a pickup wheel. This might require welding it up first, which I assume is possible given the long history of welding up and regrinding cam lobes. The other approach I was considering is a 2-piece wheel that clamps on to the cam such that a sensor using the tach drive mount points would be able to read it - but that obviously has more numerous and more concerning failure modes than having a toothed wheel section machined into the cam itself. One of my concerns is if a hall effect sensor could even work reliably on the small gear teeth required (I'm guessing ~1mm) on a shaft spinning at up to 5000 RPM. I'm assuming that an optical pickup is not going to be possible in the oil-soaked cam galley environment.

Another option would be to build something off the end of the cam and use a custom machined cam cap that passes a shaft through to a sensor arrangement. I don't like the idea of a wart on the top of the cylinder head, nor am I eager to have to manage sealing the oil around that shaft. Maybe a custom cam cap with a viewing window and an optical sensor out on the dry side, and an optical wheel mounted on or machined into the end of the cam, with some kind of oil wiper arrangement to help it work. I don't know, it's more work and more complexity in a lot less space than with your approach to the crank angle sensor.

My goal is to run closed loop with a catalytic converter - I've been assuming that would require sequential operation. Do you think that it would be possible to get there with batch?
Phil in Toronto
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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

Post by Rick Pope »

Questions from the peanut gallery....... Wouldn't it be better to have the injector timing controlled by the crank, rather than the cams, which we all know will vary as the chain/sprockets wear, and the slack jumps around, and...... There's a reason cars now have ignition and injection timed from the crank, rather than from the end of a torsion bar/cam.

So, where could one pick up timing off the crank, without having it hanging out at the end?
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Re: 1982 CBX EFI PROJECT

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Rick Pope wrote:Questions from the peanut gallery....... Wouldn't it be better to have the injector timing controlled by the crank, rather than the cams, which we all know will vary as the chain/sprockets wear, and the slack jumps around, and...... There's a reason cars now have ignition and injection timed from the crank, rather than from the end of a torsion bar/cam.
I think you're mistaken about how cars are getting their timing signal - the crank angle can't tell you what stroke a given cylinder is in. You make know that at this crank angle, piston 1 is going down, but you can't know if it's in the intake or power stroke.

By taking the signal from the cam, you get this extra information, which allows you to fire the injector for a specific cylinder only when the intake valves for that cylinder are open.
Phil in Toronto
A cool guy deserves a cool bike, a dork needs a cool bike...
Pics of Perry, my '79.

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